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  1. #1696

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread



    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Me personally... I've cooled on Williams after watching a good bit of tape on him. I think his upside is basically Brandon Pettigrew... obviously a good blocker, tough, I think he can contribute in the passing game but primarily by running short curls, flats, etc. and making catches to move the chains. His size and physicality will also allow him to do some work in the red zone.

    The problem is that he has none of the change of direction, body control, or athleticism of elite pass-catching TEs. He might be able to trick you a little bit with his straight-line speed but he's not going to get a lot of YAC or stretch the field vertically with his lack of fluidity. He's just a very old-fashioned prospect that teams are never going to be afraid of getting dominated by.

    I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Ravens draft him and I wouldn't really dislike it if it were in the later rounds. He's very "old Ravens offense." He'll block, move the chains on occasion, and outmuscle guys for TDs on occasion. But he is in no way, shape, or form dynamic... which is kind of what I'm hoping the "new Ravens offense" will be.
    We would be wise to draft Ertz or Eiffert, Great size, hands and blockers who can block out the sun. They are TRUE first round talents, I hope we get one and one is still on the board. Then let go or trade Dickson and save his cap figure off the books in 2013. Ertz and Eiffert are TRUE first round talents. The last time the Ravens won the SB, they drafted Heap to replace Sharpe a year away.




  2. #1697

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    If Chip Kelly is so pigeon holed into his college system that he is willing to give up on a guy in Foles who looked like he belonged at times for Tim Tebow, he was a massive failure as a hire for the Eagles.

    A good Offensive mind can and will adapt their system to what they have...Harbaugh and Roman are traditional pro style offensive guys. They adapted from Alex Smith to Kapernick.

    Shanahan is a pro style guy. He adapted to RGIII.

    I think Chip can and will adapt to Foles...Foles will be given a shot to see what he can do there. If Foles can't do it, he will find someone else...but I don't see any way a guy supposedly as bright as he is overlooking, or bypassing a better traditional QB just because another guy ran a spread offense in college.
    Maybe let's pump the brakes a little bit on Nick Foles. He's a 3rd round pick who put up 6 career starts, a 79.1 QBR, and a 1-5 record in his rookie year despite playing on an offense loaded with talent. I'm not at all sure that he's a can't-miss franchise QB that Chip Kelly needs to build his team around. He's proven WAY less than any of the guys you mention at this point, including Tim Tebow.

    I agree with you that Chip Kelly is going to evaluate the full spectrum of options at the QB position in the offseason. That's going to include Nick Foles, but he's not SO good and SO proven that Kelly should discard huge components of his preferred offensive system. If the Jets (or some other team) look at Nick Foles as a good fit for their system and offer the Eagles a nice package I don't think Chip is going to reject it because he's head over heels in love with Foles.

    Working with what you have is a good thing, but making low-risk moves to get what you like even more is a better thing.




  3. #1698
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Me personally... I've cooled on Williams after watching a good bit of tape on him. I think his upside is basically Brandon Pettigrew... obviously a good blocker, tough, I think he can contribute in the passing game but primarily by running short curls, flats, etc. and making catches to move the chains. His size and physicality will also allow him to do some work in the red zone.

    The problem is that he has none of the change of direction, body control, or athleticism of elite pass-catching TEs. He might be able to trick you a little bit with his straight-line speed but he's not going to get a lot of YAC or stretch the field vertically with his lack of fluidity. He's just a very old-fashioned prospect that teams are never going to be afraid of getting dominated by.

    I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Ravens draft him and I wouldn't really dislike it if it were in the later rounds. He's very "old Ravens offense." He'll block, move the chains on occasion, and outmuscle guys for TDs on occasion. But he is in no way, shape, or form dynamic... which is kind of what I'm hoping the "new Ravens offense" will be.
    Agreed, but with Pitta, we don't necessarily "need" an outrageously athletic TE.

    I'd love to see the Ravens come away with Gavin Escobar or Tyler Eiffert.

    I just don't think that they'd necessarily have to go that way.
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  4. #1699
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Me too.

    Do you classify Michael Williams into that slow/lumbering group?

    I don't. He's no speedster, but he's pretty solid. I'd be happy with Michael Williams as a mid-to-late round pick up.
    If for some reason we go two TEs again then I would be good with Escobar and Willams or Sudfeld and Williams. But Williams alone would make me very sad.
    "On their way to the podium, the Ravens FO is going to collectively step over my dead body and select...Breshad Perriman." -- Me, the day before the Draft

    Settle down. John Harbaugh and Joe Flacco's Baltimore Ravens can beat any team, anywhere.

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  5. #1700
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BigPlayReceiver View Post
    If for some reason we go two TEs again then I would be good with Escobar and Willams or Sudfeld and Williams. But Williams alone would make me very sad.
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger



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  6. #1701

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    Wrong Shanahan is a college type offensive mind. He always excells with running QB's who run the boot. IE Elway, Plummer, Cutler thats why he gave away akot to get RG3, and he employs the zone scheme.
    Running boots in a WCO and running what the Redskins ran this year is two totally different things. They obviously simplified and tailored a scheme for RG3 to be most successful year one, especially seeing that he didnt even have a playbook at Baylor. As he gains more experience they'll get closer and closer to Shanahan's traditional offense.

    As far as in Philly i agree with Raveninwoodlawn, Kelly will adjust his scheme. In fact the fact that he hired Shurmur as OC shows that. He'll blend his scheme with some West Coast and Pro principles but he'll still call the plays, stress tempo, speed, etc. His QB only ran the ball about 7 times per game i believe so it's not like he has to have a runner back there, im sure he might bring in a mobile backup to add a little package but with D-Jax, Mccoy, Maclin, Damaris Johnson, etc. he has plenty of speed.




  7. #1702

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Maybe let's pump the brakes a little bit on Nick Foles. He's a 3rd round pick who put up 6 career starts, a 79.1 QBR, and a 1-5 record in his rookie year despite playing on an offense loaded with talent. I'm not at all sure that he's a can't-miss franchise QB that Chip Kelly needs to build his team around. He's proven WAY less than any of the guys you mention at this point, including Tim Tebow.

    I agree with you that Chip Kelly is going to evaluate the full spectrum of options at the QB position in the offseason. That's going to include Nick Foles, but he's not SO good and SO proven that Kelly should discard huge components of his preferred offensive system. If the Jets (or some other team) look at Nick Foles as a good fit for their system and offer the Eagles a nice package I don't think Chip is going to reject it because he's head over heels in love with Foles.

    Working with what you have is a good thing, but making low-risk moves to get what you like even more is a better thing.
    Didn't mean to insinuate that Foles was anything close to a sure t hing, but IMHO, he has more upside as an NFL QB than Tebow...and it's not even close.

    My whole thing is this, the NFL is going ga ga over RGIII and Kapernick right now and rightly so...those guys are incredible talents. But they are very very rare...and it's not like Kelly can just pick whatever fast guy that ran the option in college and make it work. Even Russel Wilson, for all his athletic talent, was a pro style QB at NCState and Wisconsin.

    If there is a guy on the level of RGIII or Kap in this draft, of course I'd think Kelley would want them...but so would every other team without a franchise QB.

    I think the opinion that he wants a guy who can run the option so much that he overlooks quality pocket passers is incorrect...that's all I'm saying.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  8. #1703

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    No one I think is down on Pitta, but Dickson is not a good blocker, runner or has reliable hands. Ertz and Eiffert are by a large margin the best TE's in this draft and are the only ones that grade out as first round talents. You can use Pitta as H-back as well. Ertz can do it all, block too. Eiffert is better than average at everything. Plus, save loot on tendering the "waste" of Dickson. Picking at the end of the first round, you wont get a dominating pass rusher, LT or CB. Ertz and Eiffert open up the offense and provide "great" RZ targets. Nobody is in thier class TE wise.




  9. #1704

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    Running boots in a WCO and running what the Redskins ran this year is two totally different things. They obviously simplified and tailored a scheme for RG3 to be most successful year one, especially seeing that he didnt even have a playbook at Baylor. As he gains more experience they'll get closer and closer to Shanahan's traditional offense.

    As far as in Philly i agree with Raveninwoodlawn, Kelly will adjust his scheme. In fact the fact that he hired Shurmur as OC shows that. He'll blend his scheme with some West Coast and Pro principles but he'll still call the plays, stress tempo, speed, etc. His QB only ran the ball about 7 times per game i believe so it's not like he has to have a runner back there, im sure he might bring in a mobile backup to add a little package but with D-Jax, Mccoy, Maclin, Damaris Johnson, etc. he has plenty of speed.
    Kelly, you heard it hear first will not be a good fit in the NFL. If he goes up tempo all the time in the NFL, he will wear his OWN defense down in Philly. That system just wont work in the NFL, JMO. In college, his passers wont have the huge windows to convert the the 3rd down throws in the weak defensive PAC12. He may be dealing with alot of 3rd down conversion opportunities that he didnt have to deal with in college or big plays.




  10. #1705

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    I'm not down on Pitta at all. I'm actually so high on Pitta that I think the team should try to extend him this offseason. I also see the Dallas Clark comparison and agree to a certain extent... bottom line, Pitta's going to be around a while. Drafting an athletic mismatch TE isn't incompatible with Pitta sticking around at all, though.

    The thing is, the Ravens are in a state of transition right now when it comes to the offense. What do they want to be long-term? If Caldwell is going to run the system he used at Wake Forest and the system the Colts ran when he was there, it's not going to feature a fullback; it's going to be either base 2TE or 3WR. If they go 2TE a lot they already have a nice "move" TE in Pitta... he can move all around the formation, play H-Back, slot, out wide, etc. Remember what Pitta was when he was at BYU... he was primarily a slot receiver. That seems to be his comfort zone.

    What the Ravens DON'T have is a guy who can play the traditional in-line TE role. Pitta is a bit small for that at 6'4 245, he doesn't block well, and he doesn't seem super comfortable getting jammed by LBs at the LOS. My personal opinion is that the Ravens drafted Dickson and Pitta, who were basically the same type of player in college ("tight ends" in name only, mostly slot receivers), and hoped that one of them would adjust to playing on the line. Neither of them did but they've kind of forced Dickson into the role to not much success. I think Ed's days in purple are numbered because of that... he's the same player Pitta is, but not as tough or sure-handed.

    If the Ravens went out and got a Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, or Tyler Eifert, all of those guys played in-line TE in college. All of them are used to playing next to the offensive tackle although Eifert is the only one of the three who's a good blocker at this point in his development. I just think that kind of pick makes a ton of sense if you want to surround your franchise QB with deadly weapons without losing too much in the run game.

    This is the formula the Patriots are using now with Hernandez and Gronkowski... we have our Hernandez but need our Gronkowski. Williams is a good blocker but he's no Gronkowski.




  11. #1706

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I'm not down on Pitta at all. I'm actually so high on Pitta that I think the team should try to extend him this offseason. I also see the Dallas Clark comparison and agree to a certain extent... bottom line, Pitta's going to be around a while. Drafting an athletic mismatch TE isn't incompatible with Pitta sticking around at all, though.

    The thing is, the Ravens are in a state of transition right now when it comes to the offense. What do they want to be long-term? If Caldwell is going to run the system he used at Wake Forest and the system the Colts ran when he was there, it's not going to feature a fullback; it's going to be either base 2TE or 3WR. If they go 2TE a lot they already have a nice "move" TE in Pitta... he can move all around the formation, play H-Back, slot, out wide, etc. Remember what Pitta was when he was at BYU... he was primarily a slot receiver. That seems to be his comfort zone.

    What the Ravens DON'T have is a guy who can play the traditional in-line TE role. Pitta is a bit small for that at 6'4 245, he doesn't block well, and he doesn't seem super comfortable getting jammed by LBs at the LOS. My personal opinion is that the Ravens drafted Dickson and Pitta, who were basically the same type of player in college ("tight ends" in name only, mostly slot receivers), and hoped that one of them would adjust to playing on the line. Neither of them did but they've kind of forced Dickson into the role to not much success. I think Ed's days in purple are numbered because of that... he's the same player Pitta is, but not as tough or sure-handed.

    If the Ravens went out and got a Zach Ertz, Gavin Escobar, or Tyler Eifert, all of those guys played in-line TE in college. All of them are used to playing next to the offensive tackle although Eifert is the only one of the three who's a good blocker at this point in his development. I just think that kind of pick makes a ton of sense if you want to surround your franchise QB with deadly weapons without losing too much in the run game.

    This is the formula the Patriots are using now with Hernandez and Gronkowski... we have our Hernandez but need our Gronkowski. Williams is a good blocker but he's no Gronkowski.
    Actually ERTZ is considered the better blocker of the two (Ertz and Eifert) Both are can't misses, IMO. Both beasts.




  12. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Why?

    Why are you guys so down on Pitta?

    I'm all for a game changer, but the Ravens don't necessarily have an issue with a receiving TE so much as they have an issue with a TE who can block...as in they currently don't have one. When I see Williams, I see a guy who can block AND brings an added value as a decent receiver.

    Listen, I'm not saying that Pitta can or will ever be Jimmy Graham or Gronk, but Pitta can easily be a 60-70 reception TE. No doubt about it.

    I said it when he was in college and I'll say it again, I think Pitta could be a lot like Dallas Clark and I think that's how Caldwell is going to use him.
    Whoa... Hold on lol... I've been trumpeting Pitta since I saw his BYU tape in 2009. I was happy as hell when we got him. He's going to be my favorite Raven if Ed moves on.

    I was just laying out the only condition under which I would be happy with Willams. That's why I said "if for some reason".
    "On their way to the podium, the Ravens FO is going to collectively step over my dead body and select...Breshad Perriman." -- Me, the day before the Draft

    Settle down. John Harbaugh and Joe Flacco's Baltimore Ravens can beat any team, anywhere.

    Having fun talking football and tech stuff on Twitter @BigPlayReceiver




  13. #1708

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderraven View Post
    Kelly, you heard it hear first will not be a good fit in the NFL. If he goes up tempo all the time in the NFL, he will wear his OWN defense down in Philly. That system just wont work in the NFL, JMO. In college, his passers wont have the huge windows to convert the the 3rd down throws in the weak defensive PAC12. He may be dealing with alot of 3rd down conversion opportunities that he didnt have to deal with in college or big plays.
    Idk if he's gonna work at the NFL level or not, but i think with guys that make that jump they have to be humble and willing to except outside input. I've heard he's willing to do that and the Shurmur hire shows it as well. By all accounts he's a very bright guy, we'll just have to see, but i think he has a shot.




  14. #1709
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    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    Fans constantly underestimate their own players. I actually think Pitta is better than Hernandez, sure he isn't Grontkowski, but he's on his way to becoming a very good TE, he's essentially a bigger version of Aaron Hernandez. What we need is a Tyler Eifert to work with him in a two TE set, because Pitta is a receiving TE, while Tyler can block and receive, or maybe we just need a real blocking TE who can also catch, Michael Williams could be that guy.




  15. #1710

    Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread

    williams will pretty much be the replacement for billy bajema and or leach




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