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  1. #31
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?



    Quote Originally Posted by Shambla View Post
    I think the biggest flaw as someone pointed out is a 1st down via penalty. I absolutely think that if you want to take away a DB's ability to lay a hit and separate the ball from a man you need to let them be more physical and ease up on pass interference.
    That was me and I was about to reiterate the point, because ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    If you allow a team to convert multiple 4-15s, you deserve to lose just as much as a team that allows the opponent to convert every single onside kick.
    ... does not take into account how subjective and ticky-tack passing penalties have gotten. It's not all about which team "deserves" the conversion or "deserves" to be converted on.




  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    At what point has kickoffs been "unsafe" over the past 2 years?

    Theyve definitely improved.

    Either get over it or let the NFL fade out, because now the integrity of the game is just being stomped on.
    I am not arguing the validity of the move. And I agree that the game is is becoming a shell of its former self.

    But from a legal standpoint, they have to show they are doing something, even if its a bad decision, that they are taking steps to improve player safety.

    Te players are slowly biting the hand that's been feeding them and if they are not careful, it will go away much like the demise of Hostess.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  3. #33

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    they'll probably move to kickoffs to start the first and second half, and that's it. The rest of the time the team gets the ball on the 20. It's gonna happen
    I think they need some way for a scoring team to retain the ball after a score (i.e. onsides kick). Otherwise the outcome of games will be definitively determined well before the final whistle (which isn't really the case now). Maybe kickoffs in the last 5 minutes of the game as an option. Who knows?




  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I think they need some way for a scoring team to retain the ball after a score (i.e. onsides kick). Otherwise the outcome of games will be definitively determined well before the final whistle (which isn't really the case now). Maybe kickoffs in the last 5 minutes of the game as an option. Who knows?
    Goodell has already said he wants to eliminate the kickoff. Can you imagine a game starting with the team strolling out to the 20 instead of a kickoff? Buzzkill
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  5. #35

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    Goodell has already said he wants to eliminate the kickoff. Can you imagine a game starting with the team strolling out to the 20 instead of a kickoff? Buzzkill
    Yeah, I know he wants to eliminate the kickoff, for "safety" reasons. But I still think he will need to come up with some way for the scoring team to retain possession. So we are talking about the 4th-and-15 nonsense or some variation, or maybe a compromise where kickoffs still occur but only to start halves and in the last 5 minutes or something.

    If every score results in the other team getting it at the 20, then fans are going to be leaving stadiums and changing the channel way earlier than they currently do. Eventhough onsides kicks are long odds, they aren't so long as to prevent people from staying and hoping (maybe 10% chance of recovery with rule changes? it used to be way higher, but I haven't checked the last couple years' data).

    Total buzzkill. I agree. Death by a thousand cuts.




  6. #36

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    What a terrible idea.

    4 and 15 isn't nearly intimidating enough. Watch Belicheat send his offense out and just look for a flag on Gronkowski or something. And with illegal contact giving an automatic first down regardless of where on the field it happens, why not try?

    Again, terrible idea.
    You could easily end up with situations where teams like the Patriots and Packers stay on the field for entire quarters.




  7. #37
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    I heard Rich McKay push to get rid of kickoffs last year. It was John Mara the owner of the Giants pushing to keep them. Mara said he needed firm concussion data to change his mind. I wonder if this means the NFL gave it to him.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  8. #38

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I am not arguing the validity of the move. And I agree that the game is is becoming a shell of its former self.

    But from a legal standpoint, they have to show they are doing something, even if its a bad decision, that they are taking steps to improve player safety.

    Te players are slowly biting the hand that's been feeding them and if they are not careful, it will go away much like the demise of Hostess.




  9. #39
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    I'd rather see them move the kickoff up 5 more yards.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  10. #40
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Why not just move to punts period and instead of 4th and 15, you can go for a fake punt (equal to onside kick) and you have to get 15 yards. Any penalty on the receiving team is yards only not an automatic 1st down and you get to try to get those yards than like a 4th down.

    You fail to get the yards you give the team the ball at the point to where you advanced the ball.

    Personally I'd like that better than lining up under center and going 4th and 15th, a fake punt still has the element of surprise so Sean Payton still could have done that in the Super Bowl vs the Colts.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  11. #41
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shambla View Post
    I think the league percentage for 4th and 15 is about 20% (the idea is to make it about the same chance as an onside kick). To pull that off even 2 out of 2 times would be a 4% chance and meanwhile you're taking a big risk of letting a lesser team get some nice field position.
    This 2009 article at Advanced NFL Stats indicates that as of then 26% of onside kicks in the NFL were successful--but this is deceptive because the success rate goes up to 60% when the receiving team isn't expecting it; for late-game desperation conditions, 20% is about right. (But see below.) Key paragraph is at the end:
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Burke at Advanced NFL Stats
    The catch is that teams canít do this very often. The key is that the onside attempt is unexpected. As soon as a team is known for sneaky onside kicks, its success rate will go down. But this isnít such a bad thing. As opponents are forced to respect the threat of an onside kick, their normal kick return blocking will suffer, allowing overall net kickoff distance to improve. Ultimately, there would be an equilibrium, making life more difficult for the receiving team.
    So a QB who can punt the ball 30 yards in the air from a shotgun, or a punter who can throw pretty well, become desirable roster members. That's different but it doesn't fundamentally change the game.
    I think the biggest flaw as someone pointed out is a 1st down via penalty. I absolutely think that if you want to take away a DB's ability to lay a hit and separate the ball from a man you need to let them be more physical and ease up on pass interference.
    You could get around that by altering the penalty rules for post-scoring change-of-possession plays so that there are no automatic first downs by penalty (except for PFs involving potential injury like roughing the passer/kicker* & hits on defenseless receivers) & the result leaves a significant distance to go, say 5 yards: then DPI is 10 yards regardless of where on the field it occurs, defensive holding is 5 yards, and the team with the ball now faces 4th and 5. Or increase the distance to 20 yards & make DPI 15 yards, DH 10 (same as offensive) with the same result. (* - The player who takes the snap should be treated as a punter, therefore you have two levels of contact, with "running-into" the standard 5 yard penalty,)

    Put a QB with some punting ability in the shotgun for such a play & we might see completely unprecedented things happen, e.g., a QB flushed from the pocket delayed punting on the run when neither team expects it, creating utter chaos.

    Again, to all the purists out there, this may not be what we're all used to, but wouldn't it beat the crap out of just handing the receiving team the ball on its 20?




  12. #42
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    I think another cool possibility for this rule is to have an offensive penalty of any kind negate the play and give the defense the ball where the penalty occurred.

    That is to say, instead of false start, illegal formation, holding and OPI giving the ball back to the offense with penalty yards tacked on, which would probably then definitely convince the offense to punt, say that any offensive penalty in that situation counts as a failed conversion.

    Just a thought. That way the offense, too, would have to be on its very best behavior. Kind of makes up for the fact that the defense might give up some ticky-tack illegal contact.




  13. #43
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    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by akashicrecorder View Post
    I think another cool possibility for this rule is to have an offensive penalty of any kind negate the play and give the defense the ball where the penalty occurred.

    That is to say, instead of false start, illegal formation, holding and OPI giving the ball back to the offense with penalty yards tacked on, which would probably then definitely convince the offense to punt, say that any offensive penalty in that situation counts as a failed conversion.

    Just a thought. That way the offense, too, would have to be on its very best behavior. Kind of makes up for the fact that the defense might give up some ticky-tack illegal contact.
    I was thinking about this more. Why not have the same rules to a kick-off apply. If your offsides or you hold, it's a rekick. And if you went for a fake punt and there is a penalty now you can go for it in an offensive formation with the distance being minus the penalty yards.

    But let's be honest, how often is there a penalty on the receiving team in a fake punt situation?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  14. #44

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Why not just move to punts period and instead of 4th and 15, you can go for a fake punt (equal to onside kick) and you have to get 15 yards. Any penalty on the receiving team is yards only not an automatic 1st down and you get to try to get those yards than like a 4th down.
    If you're running the play from scrimmage, how do you enforce the punt/fake punt? What's to stop the Patriots from putting Brady out there as a blocker, his RB as the punter, and his WR's as the gunners?

    And if you do it as a "free kick" (as in after a safety), how do you execute a fake? You can't throw the ball; you want the punter to try to run 15 yards without being killed?




  15. #45

    Re: OT-- oh Goddell, really?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Or have their QBs learn how to punt, or their punters to throw. Wouldn't that be interesting--asking a QB to do something a body part other than his throwing arm...
    Believe it or not, you're describing Steve Spurrier.




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