Overpaying Flacco could sink the Ravens

[ActualSpamBot]

His 2010 numbers were quite a lot better than the last two years, he actually had a better statistical year in 09 than so far this year (disregarding yards) and last year.

So what you're saying is that when he was given competent coaching (Zorn) he played really good football, and when that was taken away, he regressed. Hmmm.... Wonder what would happen if he was given competent coaching and an effective offensive game plan?

[leachisabeast]

So what you're saying is that when he was given competent coaching (Zorn) he played really good football, and when that was taken away, he regressed. Hmmm.... Wonder what would happen if he was given competent coaching and an effective offensive game plan?

Maybe Jim Zorn was really good?

Frankly I'd be happy with Joe from 2010 every year, and if he didn't progress from there, I wouldn't mind, he was pretty efficient and if we had a better team in 2010, I think we would have got to the SB pretty easily. If it wasn't for a second half lapse @ Pittsburgh, we would have slaughtered the Jets at our place in the AFCCG.

Don't get me wrong, Cam is an idiot, no questions there.

[The Excellector]

Alex Smith is still NOT a great QB, and isn't in Flacco's league, Alex Smith is strictly tier 3, and is the definition of a game manager. I've even gone as far as to say Tyrod Taylor would look good playing for Jim, he has the most protected QB offensive system in the league, Flacco would look like his best under Jim, which IMO is Matt Shaubb in Houston type numbers.

My point is that a better system can actually make Smith look like a decent QB, why don't you think a better system would make Joe look Elite? He's already an above average QB.

[leachisabeast]

My point is that a better system can actually make Smith look like a decent QB, why don't you think a better system would make Joe look Elite? He's already an above average QB.

I just think his ceiling isn't quite elite. I think in a better system he'd look better than what he is right now, but just not quite there with the best.

[JAB1985]

And the only QB I can think of that really elevated his play to elite status after year 5 was Eli Manning. Just going by historic evidence here...

did you really call Eli Manning Elite? If hes Elite so is about 5 other Qbs, including Flacco, to add to Brees Rodgers Manning and Brady. You called Brees Elite for being over 100 rating, and saying Flacco's best is only 93.6, well Eli's best is still worse than that and came much later in his career. I think youre mixing arguments here. if its because hes a SB winner, well than Trent Dilfer was also Elite and that certainly doesnt make sense.

I would argue that he's plateaued, not regressed.

I think that would be more correct but even that is debatable. Cam might be seeing his first 4000 yard passer this year, id call that improvement if only minimal. Something Brees and Rivers never even got close to. comparing "todays" nfl to 5 years ago is a big change but the fact is defenses are more pass oriented now too so the fact flacco is putting up similar and even better numbers, in the exact same system with less talent, than either says more than people want to admit.

[leachisabeast]

did you really call Eli Manning Elite? If hes Elite so is about 5 other Qbs, including Flacco, to add to Brees Rodgers Manning and Brady. You called Brees Elite for being over 100 rating, and saying Flacco's best is only 93.6, well Eli's best is still worse than that and came much later in his career. I think youre mixing arguments here. if its because hes a SB winner, well than Trent Dilfer was also Elite and that certainly doesnt make sense.

I didn't mean at exactly year 5, I meant AFTER year 5 at some point, Eli for whatever reason has stepped his game up to the top level. Of course it's possible that Joe may do that one day, but it doesn't look like it at this point, that's all I'm saying.

Maybe I was a little off on calling Brees ELITE by year 3, he was still a pretty good QB though.

[JAB1985]

I didn't mean at exactly year 5, I meant AFTER year 5 at some point, Eli for whatever reason has stepped his game up to the top level. Of course it's possible that Joe may do that one day, but it doesn't look like it at this point, that's all I'm saying.

Maybe I was a little off on calling Brees ELITE by year 3, he was still a pretty good QB though.

his yards are up, but his numbers are pretty much the same and he still throws a shitton of INTs. i could make the argument that once his talent got better his stats reflected that as his ypc is the only thing that drastically changed and i think Nicks Cruz and even Plaxico had a lot to do with that.

I find it hard to remember Brees days in SD but for the life of me I cant remember him being asked to throw as often or as deep (even in Cams system) as Flacco is. Probably in part because he wasnt known for having a big arm and was struggling for years to adapt to the pro game. Brees was exactly what youre calling a game manager at that time, the question was if he could continue to progress AND recover from that injury. Really his 2004 season was his only great year and some thought that was a fluke. in his case yes he did succeed, and became an Elite QB in a system designed for him. Something I thought all OC were suppose to do.

[wickedsolo]

I think that would be more correct but even that is debatable. Cam might be seeing his first 4000 yard passer this year, id call that improvement if only minimal. Something Brees and Rivers never even got close to. comparing "todays" nfl to 5 years ago is a big change but the fact is defenses are more pass oriented now too so the fact flacco is putting up similar and even better numbers, in the exact same system with less talent, than either says more than people want to admit.

This also lends to my line of thinking that because Flacco has done so well in an antiquated offense, imagine what he'd do with an innovative passer-friendly offense?

[NCRAVEN]

His 2010 numbers were quite a lot better than the last two years, he actually had a better statistical year in 09 than so far this year (disregarding yards) and last year.

2010:
TD's: 25
Ints: 10
Completion %: 62.1
Yards: 3622

2011:
TD's: 20
Ints: 12
Completion %: 57.6
Yards: 3610

He is on pace this year for his biggest season in terms of yards, but still not great years in terms of completion %, TD's and INT's, only being slight improvements from last year. This is what is worrying to me about Flacco, yes it's a terrible system, but why has he regressed that much from 2010 when he actually looked on pace to being a very good QB?

Mystery to me.

Take stats out of the equation for a minute, because I think last year might have been Joe's best year in terms of decision making etc.

Remember 2010 the amount of out routes/comebacks he would throw to a great route runner in Mason, he completed a lot of those. Over the past two years the low completion percentages deep balls have been thrown a lot more.

Point being stats, especially bottom line stats, leave so much out. Going mainly by stats will lead... to... well 3 pages of trying to clarify your point.

Flacco is good, and I don't think he's regressed, I think he's plateaued, in this offense.

[JAB1985]

This also lends to my line of thinking that because Flacco has done so well in an antiquated offense, imagine what he'd do with an innovative passer-friendly offense?

I think thats the main difference in people that think he would be better vs he is what he is. just looking at stats is going to say one thing, putting context on those stats says a completely different imo. I think more points to him being closer to elite in another system than remaining the same. thats simply by looking at the fact that in a more modern offense he wont be asked to throw a large percentage of passes downfield and his completion percentage will rise accordingly.

imo, Flacco can make some throws that not even those Elite QBs can make. thats not to say hes collectively better, but that he has potential to do things even they cant based on their physical limitations. Im not 100% sure hell ever put the rest of those things together to become that, but because of that he certainly has potential to be in their tier in the right system.

Point being stats, especially bottom line stats, leave so much out. Going mainly by stats will lead... to... well 3 pages of trying to clarify your point.

The PFF crowd will never accept that. Stats are all that matters to some. sadly.

[bacchys]

If you just go by stats, Elway was a slightly above average QB. I think he was one of the best to ever play the position, with an arm like Bert Jones and a better scrambler than Fran Tarkenton. But he played his entire career on offenses that started with the run, even when they weren't particularly good at it.

I've seen Flacco put this team on his shoulders and put it in position to win in crunch time. It hasn't always worked out to a win, but it wasn't because he didn't play his position to a high level. He's not The Problem on this team, though at times he's been part of it, I think.

He doesn't typically come out of the gate strong. He seems to need to warm up- to work his way into the rhythm of the offense. The playcalling doesn't always- or even usually- reflect that. I don't mind the run, run, short pass, punt for a series or two in the early going of the game, though it seems to drive some folks here crazy. I don't mind it because early runs, even for little gain, are like body punches in boxing: they start to take the legs from the defense. They give the o-line a physical and mental edge over the d-line. If you can do that and string together a couple of first downs and, with Koch, win the early field position battle, you're in pretty good shape in a close game. You can wait until the third or fourth offensive series, usually, to start really mixing it up and looking for the jugular.

We have Ray Rice, Vonta Leach, and a pretty good back-up RB in Bernard Pierce. Our offensive line is big, but it isn't exactly stellar in pass protection. More early runs, even if it leads to punting the ball more, only helps them out as the game goes on. It will also help Flacco get into the flow of the game, and improve playaction. It seems to me we ran a lot more playaction and ran it more effectively his first couple of seasons than over the last couple.

[blah3]

You don't think that Joe is handled like a "game manager"? Do you think they unleash him, give him freedom?

If your answer is no then they indirectly are asking him to be a game manager and if that's what you want, it might not be necessarily a bad thing but if that's your chosen direction you can't overpay a game manager and knock your cap out of whack. To be a champion with a game manager you have to be great in other areas (e.g. 2000 Baltimore Ravens)

Can anyone say with confidence what Joe will do on Sunday? Do you know if he'll be that guy who has played in 5 of 6 home games or the guy who has played in the 6 road games?

I know he can be the guy to lead the team to a win with the game on the line. And I know he can do it in a big game. That is not a game manager.