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  1. #1

    The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...



    Point I'm trying to make is that everyone needs a little perspective. I know most of our wins haven't been pretty. But we're still 9-3. Every team has a couple of games where they just collapse.

    I know most people think losing to Batch at home is unacceptable, but horrible losses like that aren't uncommon nor are they a total indictment of how good a coach and his staff is.

    Everyone needs to breathe.




  2. #2
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Well I never! The unmitigated gall! How dare you come in here with perspective and reasoning!!!!!!
    Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...





  3. #3
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenalytics View Post
    Everyone needs to breathe.


    Breathe? I haven't been able to do that as Ravens fan for the past 4 -5 years.

    The reason (IMO) everyone is ready to throw their hands up and say "ah fuck it", is because the keep it close to the vest, limit mistakes by minimizing risk has caused this team to lose games we shoulda won and won close games that shouldn't be close.

    Now I don't pretend to know whats going on behind closed doors, maybe the coaches look at the team and go "these dudes suck, we gotta play this way to have a chance". If that's the case, okay, I disagree. But judging by the same type of game plan and foot off the pedal when were up (if that happens before the 4th quarter with a minute to go) tells me this is the approach no matter what.

    Breathe... yeah, maybe when the seasons over.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #4
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    The reason (IMO) everyone is ready to throw their hands up and say "ah fuck it", is because the keep it close to the vest, limit mistakes by minimizing risk has caused this team to lose games we shoulda won and won close games that shouldn't be close.

    Now I don't pretend to know whats going on behind closed doors, maybe the coaches look at the team and go "these dudes suck, we gotta play this way to have a chance". If that's the case, okay, I disagree. But judging by the same type of game plan and foot off the pedal when were up (if that happens before the 4th quarter with a minute to go) tells me this is the approach no matter what.
    It just occurred to me--& I'd appreciate it if the usual subspects like you & Cap'n Sliver would chime in on the subject--that what really, really, really pisses Ravens fans off about Harbaugh's risk-avoidancce approach isn't that it's conservative, or boring. Helzbelz, if there's any fan base in the NFL that's used to that & OK with it it's right here--it won this team a frakkin' Super Bowl, dinnit?

    The really, really annoying thing about Harbaughesque football is that it's timid.

    Conservative football is when you say to the opponent,
    We're gonna take the air out of the ball & jam it down your throat on the ground & eat up 7-8 minutes & pound it in for 6 at the end. Try & stop us.
    Or,
    You stopped us? Bully for you--we'll pin you back against your own goal & dare you to move the ball against our D. We'll hit like a ton of bricks & chase your QB out of the pocket & hassle you into making mistakes--& when you do we'll jump all over them.
    But the Ravens don't play like that anymore. It's almost as if they're tiptoeing through the game, not taking any chances, hold onto the ball, no passing over the middle to risk an INT, cobble together a first down here & a first down there & if you only get a FG hey, points is points, & if that doesn't work out then punt, & don't give them an undeserved short field on a kick return, & on defense keep everything in front of you, don't risk crazy blitzes, don't gamble on passes (unless you're wearing #20)...& hope to catch a break or two more than the opponent & be hanging onto the lead & no serious injuries when the final gun goes off.

    (I'm trying to think of a good analogy for this but I'm coming up empty...)

    Risk avoidance may be the best strategy to maximize wins without a truly dominant team, but it's really unsatisfying, because eking out* victories is not what most of us watch football to see. We want to see our team making the thrilling &/or beautiful plays &/or imposing its will on the other team. We get enough plodding--heck, we do enough plodding--in our daily lives (& while it may be the only sound & sensible way to live when you have important items like families that should not be put at needless risk, it doesn't feel much more satisfying then either).

    Remember when the Flaming Thumbtacks were supposedly the class of the league & the Ravens had to go to Tennessee to face them in the playoffs? Remember what Billick said?
    When you go in the lion's den, you don't tippy toe in you carry a spear, you go in screaming like a banshee, you kick whatever doors in, and say, 'Where's the SOB?' If you go in any other way you're gonna lose.
    Bluntly, that's exactly what the Steelers did last Sunday. And they made it stick.

    Can you imagine this Ravens team, after a year's worth of risk-avoidance & tippytoeing & eking out, being able to do the same thing come the postseason (or the game @CIN if they need it to make the dance)? I have my doubts. And that really pisses me off.



    * 7 of the Ravens' 9 wins (the 2 exceptions were CIN and OAK) were by 1 score or less, or should have been (gift FG late in the game @CLE)--as were 2 of the 3 losses. (No wonder the pundits said before Sunday that this was the least impressive 9-2 team they'd ever seen.)




  5. #5
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    It just occurred to me--& I'd appreciate it if the usual subspects like you & Cap'n Sliver would chime in on the subject--that what really, really, really pisses Ravens fans off about Harbaugh's risk-avoidancce approach isn't that it's conservative, or boring. Helzbelz, if there's any fan base in the NFL that's used to that & OK with it it's right here--it won this team a frakkin' Super Bowl, dinnit?

    The really, really annoying thing about Harbaughesque football is that it's timid.

    Conservative football is when you say to the opponent, Or, But the Ravens don't play like that anymore. It's almost as if they're tiptoeing through the game, not taking any chances, hold onto the ball, no passing over the middle to risk an INT, cobble together a first down here & a first down there & if you only get a FG hey, points is points, & if that doesn't work out then punt, & don't give them an undeserved short field on a kick return, & on defense keep everything in front of you, don't risk crazy blitzes, don't gamble on passes (unless you're wearing #20)...& hope to catch a break or two more than the opponent & be hanging onto the lead & no serious injuries when the final gun goes off.

    (I'm trying to think of a good analogy for this but I'm coming up empty...)

    Risk avoidance may be the best strategy to maximize wins without a truly dominant team, but it's really unsatisfying, because eking out* victories is not what most of us watch football to see. We want to see our team making the thrilling &/or beautiful plays &/or imposing its will on the other team. We get enough plodding--heck, we do enough plodding--in our daily lives (& while it may be the only sound & sensible way to live when you have important items like families that should not be put at needless risk, it doesn't feel much more satisfying then either).

    Remember when the Flaming Thumbtacks were supposedly the class of the league & the Ravens had to go to Tennessee to face them in the playoffs? Remember what Billick said?
    Bluntly, that's exactly what the Steelers did last Sunday. And they made it stick.

    Can you imagine this Ravens team, after a year's worth of risk-avoidance & tippytoeing & eking out, being able to do the same thing come the postseason (or the game @CIN if they need it to make the dance)? I have my doubts. And that really pisses me off.



    * 7 of the Ravens' 9 wins (the 2 exceptions were CIN and OAK) were by 1 score or less, or should have been (gift FG late in the game @CLE)--as were 2 of the 3 losses. (No wonder the pundits said before Sunday that this was the least impressive 9-2 team they'd ever seen.)
    The Ravens coaching staff is damned if they do and damned if they don't. When they get aggressive and we lose people bitch too. Perfect example, the The hair's strip sack of Flacco in 2009. The Ravens were going for the first down in that situation, a first down that all but ices the game. They were playing to win the game. But Polamalu made a great play and every one bitched and moaned all week about how the Ravens should have been playing not lose and run the ball in that situation. Like I said, damned if you do and if you don't. Hell even when the Ravens win people bitch. People are going to bitch no matter what the team does. That's what happens in a spoiled fan base.




  6. #6
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    The Ravens coaching staff is damned if they do and damned if they don't. When they get aggressive and we lose people bitch too. Perfect example, the The hair's strip sack of Flacco in 2009. The Ravens were going for the first down in that situation, a first down that all but ices the game. They were playing to win the game. But Polamalu made a great play and every one bitched and moaned all week about how the Ravens should have been playing not lose and run the ball in that situation. Like I said, damned if you do and if you don't. Hell even when the Ravens win people bitch. People are going to bitch no matter what the team does. That's what happens in a spoiled fan base.
    IIRC the reason The Hair makes that play is that the left side of the OL screwed up its assignments. The next year at Heinz Field, Flacco had time to hit Housh in the EZ for the winning score because Heap saw Polamullet blitzing & came across the formation to punk him. If you're going to take a chance you should at least execute it properly--otherwise you're just being foolish. (Cf. Oakland going for it on 4th down near midfield in the 1st quarter of their game here--gutsy & probably very heady call, but you can't have your QB tripped by his own lineman as he takes the snap.)

    IMHO you are way off based with your complaints about a "spolied fan base." Ravens fans have been told over & over for years now that their FO drafts exceptionally well & is (collectively) a top-notch judge of talent & handles the cap superbly to assemble year-in & year-out a roster with significantly better talent than the league average. A team with better than average talent ought to be winning more often than not, and ought to be competitive in the playoffs on a regular basis. That's being logical, not spoiled.

    Now if you want to argue that the talent is in fact not there, go right ahead. I haven't been terribly happy with the last few drafts & some of the personnel decisions that have been made & I am starting to wonder if it isn't time for Bama to ease Mal Moore into retirement so that Oz can hand things over to deCosta & take over as their AD. But if you have no quibbles with the abilities of the guys on the roster, then you have to look elsewhere for the mostly uninspiring performace of the team this year, & my money is on the "lions led by donkeys" conjecture.




  7. #7
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    It just occurred to me--& I'd appreciate it if the usual subspects like you & Cap'n Sliver would chime in on the subject--that what really, really, really pisses Ravens fans off about Harbaugh's risk-avoidancce approach isn't that it's conservative, or boring. Helzbelz, if there's any fan base in the NFL that's used to that & OK with it it's right here--it won this team a frakkin' Super Bowl, dinnit?

    The really, really annoying thing about Harbaughesque football is that it's timid.
    I think what's most frustrating is that it's the same approach every week regardless of opponent.

    A game that comes to mind is the Titans playoff game in 2008, we were clearly outmatched that game. The mistakes we forced them into while making few ourselves won that game. I was fine with that approach for a game like that.

    The Chargers last week have a terrible o-line and a beat up somewhat undersized D. I felt (I was drinking so I don't remember the whole game) that was another keep it close, take no chances game, the Chargers suck, that game did not need to be close.


    For me, it's week in week out, Go slow keep it close, if were down or up 3 play zone on D keep everyone in front of you, don't blitz (at least to exotically or too many people (don't wanna get burned)), it's okay if they move the ball, once they get in the Red Zone we'll tighten up and hope that keeps it close and low scoring.

    On offense, it's run, run pass out routes and 9 routes. If we pass on 1st it's never(or hardly ever) a slant or a crossing route and if it fails it's always a run from under center to Rice up the middle.

    The game plan NEVER changes until it's too close for comfort or we're down. I Will never stop watching the Ravens and I don't think the season is over, but I can't breathe when I watch this team. I know what I am going to get as far as the approach, the outcome is up in the air.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  8. #8

    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    It just occurred to me--& I'd appreciate it if the usual subspects like you & Cap'n Sliver would chime in on the subject--that what really, really, really pisses Ravens fans off about Harbaugh's risk-avoidancce approach isn't that it's conservative, or boring. Helzbelz, if there's any fan base in the NFL that's used to that & OK with it it's right here--it won this team a frakkin' Super Bowl, dinnit?

    The really, really annoying thing about Harbaughesque football is that it's timid.
    Hey man, I am all over the threads, I can only cover so much Harbaugh love.

    There is a large portion, not all, but a large portion of fans mirror our head coach. Even at this point, so does the owner Steve Bisciotti.

    Success in the NFL is often based off of wins. John has a lot. So many that he is safe in regards to what the owner wants. That chance, the glimmer of hope to maybe one day to win a Super Bowl. It does take a bit of luck aside from being good.

    But being good, being really, really good, in football, in life, in business can be enough. In fact, it can make you very, very, rich.

    But to be the best, the greatest, the one that stands above all others and can say, I am better than everyone else takes something more than being good. It demands more.

    We do not have that in a head coach. He is from the tree of almost. Bo Schembechler or Andy Ried, take your pick. Winning it all is not his pedigree. Never has been, never will be.

    I need not compare him to previous coaches or current coaches, I need only watch the flow of the game, the X's and O'x, the favorable player match-ups that are missed or squandered opportunities, be it 30 seconds at a half or the mismanagement of timeouts on foolish challenges. I get to watch a quarterback who has all the tools, be doubted in his contract year because of a superseding commitment to mediocrity in an offensive coordinator who is stuck in 1974.

    But again, there has been great success. I attribute this to the PLAYERS. Our players are simply better than most. Ozzie Newsome is getting a lot of flak now, but I say it is unwarranted, talent wise we have it.

    So being good based upon riding the talent of this team is what John Harbaugh's resume is. Pruple Kool-Aid drinking fans will call me the hater, which is fine. John Harbaugh had the great pleasure to step into a well stocked team and run it. Let's see how well that would go over in Buffalo or Cleveland.

    Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.
    Last edited by Captain Silver; 12-05-2012 at 11:12 AM.




  9. #9

    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Captain, we are on opposite ends of this debate. I don't necessarily consider myself a "Harbaugh lover". Two years ago (after his third season), I said that if he could not beat Pittsburgh, win division titles and garner home playoff games, he should be squarely on the hot-seat. He's done that and got the team to the precipice. In my mind, that earns him a few more years to see if he can finish the job. We can disagree on whether he has earned or should get that chance.

    But when you say this..

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.
    It really undermines the other (good) points you were making. I mean, if that is how we are judging "great" coaches, then explain how Tomlin lost to Tim Tebow? Yes, I know, Tomlin has won a Super Bowl (some think he may have won 2 or more)...anyway, how does that "great" coach then turn around and lose to Tim Tebow?




  10. #10

    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Captain, we are on opposite ends of this debate. I don't necessarily consider myself a "Harbaugh lover". Two years ago (after his third season), I said that if he could not beat Pittsburgh, win division titles and garner home playoff games, he should be squarely on the hot-seat. He's done that and got the team to the precipice. In my mind, that earns him a few more years to see if he can finish the job. We can disagree on whether he has earned or should get that chance.

    But when you say this..



    It really undermines the other (good) points you were making. I mean, if that is how we are judging "great" coaches, then explain how Tomlin lost to Tim Tebow? Yes, I know, Tomlin has won a Super Bowl (some think he may have won 2 or more)...anyway, how does that "great" coach then turn around and lose to Tim Tebow?
    Tomlin didn't lose to Tim Tebow at home on a 16 home game winning streak.

    It undermines nothing, I wrote, and if logic such as this prevails this is exactly why fans are satisfied with John. Thanks for proving my point




  11. #11
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    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Before I start, Cap'n, your new avatar is a relief to my senses--which is more a commentary on the hideousness of Bane than the aesthetic qualities of Dr House.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Hey man, I am all over the threads, I can only cover so much Harbaugh love.

    There is a large portion, not all, but a large portion of fans mirror our head coach. Even at this point, so does the owner Steve Bisciotti.
    Yeah, that last kinda concerns me too. Harbaugh seems to have sold him on the idea (or--scary thought--was it the other way around??) that the path to consistent success in the NFL is to play risk-avoiding football, capitalize on the opponents' mistakes, & crabcrawl your way into the postseason--& once there, who knows, you might just get hot &/or lucky & snatch a Lombardi. And maybe in the long view that's the high percentage play. But dammit, football is entertainment, & there's not much entertaining about a team that grimly grinds out wins against teams that shower them with gifts in the form of unforced mistakes & shows no spark of determination or creativity until it's close to (or is) too late. Seriously, have Ravens fans actually enjoyed them looking barely adequate in 7 of their 9 victories, & snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2 of their 3 losses?

    Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.
    The kind of thing that prompts me to wonder--for a team that supposedly has so much faith in themselves & each other, how much faith does Harbaugh have in them? Not enough to trust Flacco to throw over the middle, it seems. Not enough to let Rice (who has fumbled once all year) even take a handoff at the end of the first half last week. (As I pointed out elsewhere, R2 in his career has put the ball on the ground in less than 1% of his carries.)

    FTR, I am not convinced that this team has superior talent--or rather, I think the evidence shows that the talent level is pretty ordinary in a number of key areas. It's not just with Flacco that they don't know what they have--e.g., they won't really know how bad the OL needs upgrading until & unless they shitcan Moeller & replace him with someone competent.




  12. #12

    Re: The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    But dammit, football is entertainment, & there's not much entertaining about a team that grimly grinds out wins against teams that shower them with gifts in the form of unforced mistakes & shows no spark of determination or creativity until it's close to (or is) too late. Seriously, have Ravens fans actually enjoyed them looking barely adequate in 7 of their 9 victories, & snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2 of their 3 losses?

    FTR, I am not convinced that this team has superior talent--or rather, I think the evidence shows that the talent level is pretty ordinary in a number of key areas. It's not just with Flacco that they don't know what they have--e.g., they won't really know how bad the OL needs upgrading until & unless they shitcan Moeller & replace him with someone competent.
    Which is it? Are they a good team that is under-performing (or just barely performing) or an average team with 9 wins that is over-performing. It looks like you are working both sides of the street here....




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