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  1. #1

    Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?



    Cam's Offense...

    1) QB to be very accurate on the deep ball. Nearly everyone will be a tight window b/c they throw it deep so often that it never surprises the opposing defense. Also, never any stop and go/double move routes... just 9 routes (fly)
    2) QB needs to throw a lot of sideline out routes which good arm strength helps
    3) QB will need to throw into very tight windows to slot receiver who gets little or no separation, b/c of no rubs or crossing routes
    4) Because of longer developing routes, QB will need to be aware of potential pass rush. In Ravens case, ok protection at home, mediocre on the road.
    5) Defenses typically play press man, and b/c there are few crossing routes, Middle of field is underutilized. Middle of field are risky passes due to lack of receiver separation.
    6) QB does have a dynamite receiving option out of the backfield

    Now just for shits and giggles swap out Joe for other NFL QBs in the Cam Offense. Who would be better?

    ARod ---- No Doubt.
    Big Ben --- Yea. Probably more accurate on the deep ball than Joe. Strong arm for the out routes. And his escapability would definitely help
    Cutler --- Maybe... I'd think he'd have more TDs than Joe but a lot more INTs
    Eli --- Probably but not much better
    Schaub --- On Par.. All those out routes would be tough. Deep ball probably not as good as Joe. But I think Matt would utilize Rice better than Joe
    Rivers --- Probably same as Joe. Probably a few more INTs so I'd stick with Joe
    Luck --- Too early to decide but he has ARod tools so I'd go with the potential andd pedigree....Risky though
    MattyIce -- Nah... Just dont see him being better in the Cam offense over Joe.

    Anybody else? Romo --- Nah. Freeman --- Just dont see it. No way with Dalton. RG3 would not fit in the Cam offense

    I didnt bring up the trinity of Manning/Brady/Brees. We all know that they would never run the Cam Offense. They would create their own offensive scheme. But that's not my question. Could Brady be that much better than Joe if Cam is still running the show? I really dont think Brady has the deep ball. Manning either. Brees out of those three would probably do the best.

    I've seen some fans say that the Ravens should save money on Joe's contract and target Alex Smith. I think that would be a disaster b/c Smith has none of traits necessary for Cam's offense. He only did well in that dink and dunk offense in SF who have a great OL.

    Is Joe the best QB... hell no. Yea and he sucked yesterday. But given what is required for a QB in the Cam system, the Ravens could have a lot worst than Joe.




  2. #2

    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    I am not sure the receivers are "never open" as much as people say around here. It is much like the "drops" excuse, based on truth, but way overused/overstated. There is a difference between "not open" and "not open when the ball gets there." I admit the latter happens a lot, but it doesn't mean the QB is blameless every time.

    It is very hard to see or compare the mental abilities of a QB as a fan, but it is the most important aspect of being a good NFL QB.

    I am fully in the camp of "Cam's offense is lacking," but I am not so sure my list of QBs who would make this offense look better is as limited as yours. I also think that "better" might not even mean "better" total numbers, but simply more consistency. Less 1-2 quarter stretches where we suck, and maybe/probably less explosive spurts as well. I also think that Cam would change the offense (at least somewhat, though probably not entirely like he should) if some of those other QBs were here.

    It is very hard to see how much, if at all, Cam limits the playbook in an effort to "protect" Joe from bad decisions. Not saying it is being done well or is even necessary. In fact, I think if it is being done it is being done to the detriment of the team, but we don't know what Cam sees in practice or how much Harbaugh is saying "I don't want interceptions, period."

    It is very hard to judge either Joe or Cameron in their collaboration. I think both could look better with different counterparts. I also think Cameron is more "at fault" and is easier to replace.




  3. #3
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I am not sure the receivers are "never open" as much as people say around here. It is much like the "drops" excuse, based on truth, but way overused/overstated. There is a difference between "not open" and "not open when the ball gets there." I admit the latter happens a lot, but it doesn't mean the QB is blameless every time.

    It is very hard to see or compare the mental abilities of a QB as a fan, but it is the most important aspect of being a good NFL QB.

    I am fully in the camp of "Cam's offense is lacking," but I am not so sure my list of QBs who would make this offense look better is as limited as yours. I also think that "better" might not even mean "better" total numbers, but simply more consistency. Less 1-2 quarter stretches where we suck, and maybe/probably less explosive spurts as well. I also think that Cam would change the offense (at least somewhat, though probably not entirely like he should) if some of those other QBs were here.

    It is very hard to see how much, if at all, Cam limits the playbook in an effort to "protect" Joe from bad decisions. Not saying it is being done well or is even necessary. In fact, I think if it is being done it is being done to the detriment of the team, but we don't know what Cam sees in practice or how much Harbaugh is saying "I don't want interceptions, period."
    I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but if Joe is dropping back and looking at receivers that just aren't open, what is he supposed to do? I think if you really go back and analyze his throws that are completions you'd see that those passes are in such a ridiculously tight window that many QB's probably wouldn't even try to throw it. QB's are taught to scan the field and make the least risky decision with the ball. I do think that there is a lot of areas where Flacco can greatly improve, but I just can't tell you how many times I watch the game (on TV, All-22, NFL Network, and at M&T) and I constantly see receivers being blanketed by corners and safeties.

    Either defenses REALLY come to play when they play Baltimore, the receivers we have stink and can't consistently get open, or the overall package just isn't cutting the mustard on the field.

    We've just seen the exact same thing every single season and it seems like in some areas Flacco has really grown, but in other areas he has either plateaued or even regressed.

    I also think you bring up an interesting point in that a lot of the times (especially against really good D's...a la Pittsburgh) we have seen an ultra conservative effort offensively, so it does beg the question about whether or not Cam (and/or Harbaugh) is limiting the play book to provide a more risk-averse situation offensively.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    It's easy enough to go back and look at other QBs who played under this offense and do the comparison. But without the other components (receivers, RBs, Oline, defense, etc) it's still apples / oranges.

    Joe had another bad performance yesterday but I don't think he's going anywhere. Look at teams without QBs (Jets, Cards game yesterday was unwatchable). He's the best QB this team's had and they'll tag him if necessary. If there's a change made it will be at OC.
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Luck, by a wide margin. The man is unreal.




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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    It's easy enough to go back and look at other QBs who played under this offense and do the comparison. But without the other components (receivers, RBs, Oline, defense, etc) it's still apples / oranges.

    Joe had another bad performance yesterday but I don't think he's going anywhere. Look at teams without QBs (Jets, Cards game yesterday was unwatchable). He's the best QB this team's had and they'll tag him if necessary. If there's a change made it will be at OC.
    Which is what should have already happened.

    You can't fairly gauge Flacco until he plays under a different OC with a better scheme.

    I know you're very reserved when it comes to pointing fingers at Cam and I understand why, but at the end of the day I look at the history of Cam as an offensive coordinator and short of a prolific LaDanian Tomlinson, he has never really produced more than a slightly above average offense. When the D is as bad as the Ravens' D is this year, having a slightly above average offense just isn't going to be able to get it done.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Florida Art View Post
    Luck, by a wide margin. The man is unreal.
    Still bothers me that they could have brought in Bruce Arians, gotten a plethora of insider knowledge about Dick LeBeau and his D, and gotten an offense that has statistically been very good and produced SB wins.

    If the Ravens keep Cam next year, the Colts will win a SB before the Ravens do. Luck is very good, but Bruce Arians' offense is far and away a better and more productive offense than Cam's.
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  8. #8
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Which is what should have already happened.

    You can't fairly gauge Flacco until he plays under a different OC with a better scheme.

    I know you're very reserved when it comes to pointing fingers at Cam and I understand why, but at the end of the day I look at the history of Cam as an offensive coordinator and short of a prolific LaDanian Tomlinson, he has never really produced more than a slightly above average offense. When the D is as bad as the Ravens' D is this year, having a slightly above average offense just isn't going to be able to get it done.
    the thing is, they were killing it early this year. The offense looked like it had finally turned the corner and everything was clicking. what changed?
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  9. #9

    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    the thing is, they were killing it early this year. The offense looked like it had finally turned the corner and everything was clicking. what changed?
    They don't play the Bungles, Browns, and Raiders every week?




  10. #10

    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    Cam's Offense...

    1) QB to be very accurate on the deep ball. Nearly everyone will be a tight window b/c they throw it deep so often that it never surprises the opposing defense. Also, never any stop and go/double move routes... just 9 routes (fly)
    2) QB needs to throw a lot of sideline out routes which good arm strength helps
    3) QB will need to throw into very tight windows to slot receiver who gets little or no separation, b/c of no rubs or crossing routes
    4) Because of longer developing routes, QB will need to be aware of potential pass rush. In Ravens case, ok protection at home, mediocre on the road.
    5) Defenses typically play press man, and b/c there are few crossing routes, Middle of field is underutilized. Middle of field are risky passes due to lack of receiver separation.
    6) QB does have a dynamite receiving option out of the backfield
    .

    Couldn't agree more. This is exactly what is wrong with Cam's offense. It was painful to see how often our receivers were not just covered, but totally BLANKETED by one sometimes two dbs. The routes cam runsare just awful--they take too long to develop, are predictable, and then Joe get blamed for "holding the ball too long."




  11. #11
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    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
    They don't play the Bungles, Browns, and Raiders every week?

    I know that's part of it, they were playing the top defense in a must win game. But they put up 44 against Cinci, 31 against NE and Dallas...
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  12. #12

    Re: Swap out Joe from the Cam Offense and insert other NFL QB... Who would be better?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but if Joe is dropping back and looking at receivers that just aren't open, what is he supposed to do? I think if you really go back and analyze his throws that are completions you'd see that those passes are in such a ridiculously tight window that many QB's probably wouldn't even try to throw it. QB's are taught to scan the field and make the least risky decision with the ball. I do think that there is a lot of areas where Flacco can greatly improve, but I just can't tell you how many times I watch the game (on TV, All-22, NFL Network, and at M&T) and I constantly see receivers being blanketed by corners and safeties.

    Either defenses REALLY come to play when they play Baltimore, the receivers we have stink and can't consistently get open, or the overall package just isn't cutting the mustard on the field.

    We've just seen the exact same thing every single season and it seems like in some areas Flacco has really grown, but in other areas he has either plateaued or even regressed.

    I also think you bring up an interesting point in that a lot of the times (especially against really good D's...a la Pittsburgh) we have seen an ultra conservative effort offensively, so it does beg the question about whether or not Cam (and/or Harbaugh) is limiting the play book to provide a more risk-averse situation offensively.
    I agree about the windows, in general. But we run too many outs and not enough posts/slants, so the "windows" are a result of being "safe," i.e. to the outside. Joe throws them very well because he has a strong arm and because he has a lot of practice since 90% of his career throws seem to be outs (the ones that are not hopeful bombs).

    But there are times, several last night, where Joe just takes the snap, doesn't look anywhere but to a single WR running the out (Boldin/Pitta, etc), sees him blanketed, and throws it anyway, early and while the pocket is holding up. It is hard not to imagine other QBs (maybe ones who are not incessantly lectured about playing safe?) deciding not to throw there but rather to look somewhere else.

    Like you say, the vertical nature of the routes makes the "throwing before the break" kind of completions few and far between. I am just not sure if that is by design because Cam is stupid or by design because Cam/Harbs do not trust Joe to know when to throw to the guy breaking (i.e. whether he will be open based on where the DB is positioned or whether the DB is in position to undercut the break, etc).




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