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  1. #31
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    Re: Football and Faith



    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    By who? One lone nut who was promptly shut down by both sides?
    Guilty conscience, Spam?
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  2. #32

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Muhammad is a prophet, Muslims and Christian's believe in the same God. Not trying to argue, just trying to stay factual.

    But I haven't heard (not saying there aren't any) of Harbaugh talk about Jesus. My Main point though is there is a difference between between spiritual and religious.

    1. Believe in God
    2. Believe in God and Jesus was His son or b) Believe in God and Mohammed or etc.
    3. Believing in a specific religion, baptist, catholic etc.
    That is true, but one could reasonably deduce that John was referring to Christian faith based on his constant biblical references.




  3. #33
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Until someone can provide me with evidence that a player's faith, or lack thereof, determines whether he is drafted, signed, played, benched or cut, this must remain a baseless claim.
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no "claim", not even a conjecture--I simply wondered "out loud" if there is any relationship. Is there any basis for thinking there is? There wasn't until Harbaugh "opened the door" to that sort of speculation by needlessly making the situation so public as to be nearly unavoidable.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.
    Please ignore ActualSpamBot, he clearly did not understand my post.

    I have no problems with an individual's beliefs so long as he doesn't go out of his/her way to foist them on others. But when the head coach of a sports team that represents my home town (not an avowedly religious institution like Notre Dame or TCU or Southern Methodist) goes out of his way to institute in his operation, not just a spiritual structure but a religious structure associated with one particular religion, and then goes out of his way to publicize it, it is neither "shrill" nor "militant" for a non-believer to express deep misgivings.




  4. #34
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    The sentiment "I support others rights to believe what they want" is generally honest, but usually hides the preposition, "as long as they don't take their belief seriously."

    Reactions like the one ExtraPoint is having show what happens when someone shows they take their belief seriously.
    I think you could change this to.
    "I support others rights to believe what they want" but "as long as they don't ever talk about them in public."
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  5. #35

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Please ignore lob, he's making rational unbelievers look like shrill, militant nutters.
    Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.




  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedSkins Fury View Post
    Actually, I agree with him. I think his post is well thought out and written. I do agree that some of his views and/or fears may be on the extreme side of thinking, but what he fears is not unheard of. I certainly hope that these things aren't happening within the organization.
    I think this reaffirms my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    Typical high-minded nonsense. In reality, there's a difference between respecting someone's right to their convictions (whatever their nature) and merely wondering about the implications of interjecting those convictions into what has historically been an areligious arena.

    What would Frank Zappa think?
    I'd say "merely wondering" is an intentional understatement.

    While I find Zappa amusing, he was a sociopath, so I'd say his opinion would be predictable to say the least.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  7. #37

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no "claim", not even a conjecture--I simply wondered "out loud" if there is any relationship. Is there any basis for thinking there is? There wasn't until Harbaugh "opened the door" to that sort of speculation by needlessly making the situation so public as to be nearly unavoidable.
    Ok...I changed my post from "claim" to "speculation".




  8. #38
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    As a Christian, I don't see the pre-game prayer as a prayer to ask for a win. The outcome of the game is almost besides the point. It is a prayer to perform well with your god-given talents, and to be true to yourself, your teammates and your coaches. In my mind, this is no different than someone saying a prayer to themselves before a work day, or a big meeting, or a speech. "Give me the strength to do X."

    Well, I would hope that he would be paying attention to the individuals that make up the team, as well as the individuals on the other team.

    I think the whole "God is for US and against THEM" gets overplayed sometimes.

    From what I've heard from the players themselves (my nephews know Matt Stover and I've talked to him) is they pray for each other during the game and that no one will
    get seriously hurt. God doesn't care who wins a football game but he does care about everyone in the game.

    Players from both teams gathered for years after the game and you seldom if ever saw it on TV but nobody is asking
    God for a win. They just want to play their best and that nobody gets hurt.
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 11-30-2012 at 06:09 PM.




  9. #39

    Re: Football and Faith

    So Lob is perfectly alright with people having different opinions than his, as long as they never mention them? Not surprising from a liberal, but whatever.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, “Hi I’m Ben may I have a drink please?”
    ProFootballMock




  10. #40

    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    From what I've heard from the players themselves is they pray for each other during the game and that no one will
    get seriously hurt. God doesn't care who wins a football game but he does care about everyone in the game.

    Players from both teams gathered for years after the game and you seldom ever saw it on TV but nobody is asking
    God for a win. They just want to play their best and that nobody gets hurt.
    After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, “Hi I’m Ben may I have a drink please?”
    ProFootballMock




  11. #41
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Yea, there's plenty who will agree with him but not us.




  12. #42
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    ...as a Christian, I am uncomfortable with other Christians that feel they need a bull-horn on main street to practice our religion. I am more of a walk-the-walk parishioner.
    And non-believers like me have no bone to pick with believers like you. I never had a problem with Matt Stover pointing to heaven after each kick--he acknowledged the Creator he believes in, & left it there. Heck, like most everyone else I shed a tear when Jermaine Lewis did the same as he crossed the goal line in SB35, even though I don't believe his unborn son is in heaven (because I don't believe that such a heaven exists).
    If you are uncomfortable because you think that his beliefs are mandated to the team and that non-conformity has consequences. Well, yeah, until someone can provide any sort of evidence to support that claim, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
    I beg to differ, John--to me it makes a whole heckuva lot of sense. It's one thing for the team to say, We want to support our athletes in their faith & so we have chapel & Bible study & a Christian chaplain available to all who care to take part.

    But when the Head Coach goes out of his way to publicly proclaim that those activities are "a big part of who we are," it's not a stretch to conclude that unless a player participates in these things he's not really part of the team. If you're the 52nd or 53rd guy on the roster, hanging on to your NFL dream for dear life, & you have a philosophical problem with this, the pressure to conform must be immense.

    And this is what I find so incomprehensible about Harbaugh going public about this. What did it accomplish, other than to put even more pressure on any player with reservations to "get with the program"? How can anyone be certain there won't be consequences for those who can't or won't?




  13. #43
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    After every game I played in high school and college, players from both teams would meet in the middle of the field and pray together. Lob doesn't think we should be allowed to do that.
    Talk about pulling something out of thin air.

    You can pray if you want to. It shouldn't be something mandated by authority.

    I'm positive the Ravens don't require every player and coach to pray, but when he says what he did he is speaking for the team as a whole. I think it would be wise for him to stay away from speaking for everybody on matters like this.




  14. #44
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by darb72 View Post
    So Lob is perfectly alright with people having different opinions than his, as long as they never mention them? Not surprising from a liberal, but whatever.
    Typical rightwinger, trying to shove words in my mouth & then crap on me for saying them.

    Matt Stover is by all accounts every bit as devout a Christian as Tim Tebow, but no non-believing Ravens fan I know ever had a problem with him pointing to the sky after every kick & acknowledging the Creator he believes in.

    For every non-believer who (you want to believe) only respects others' beliefs if they never mention them, there are a dozen believers who only respect non-believers' views so long as they can say to themselves "Believe what you will, I'm going to heaven when I die & you're gonna burn in hell." Nice people.

    I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.




  15. #45
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    Re: Football and Faith

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    I don't really care what you believe or how ludicrous it seems to me so long as you treat your fellow man with decency & respect. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are in dire need of a refresher course on just what that means. They ought to start by rereading what their Savior actually said, most especially Matthew 25:31-46.
    But you do care if they share them in public, right?

    I mean, I see you qualified in with a subjective term "go out of his/their way" but you could say that any time you wanted, could you not?

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    I have no problems with an individual's beliefs so long as he doesn't go out of his/her way to foist them on others. But when the head coach of a sports team that represents my home town (not an avowedly religious institution like Notre Dame or TCU or Southern Methodist) goes out of his way to institute in his operation, not just a spiritual structure but a religious structure associated with one particular religion, and then goes out of his way to publicize it, it is neither "shrill" nor "militant" for a non-believer to express deep misgivings.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




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