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  1. #91

    Re: What is Joe worth?



    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post

    If the Ravens can't or won't lock up Flacco long-term, there's really no other option apart from mortgaging their future to get one in the draft a la Washington. Even then, there's absolutely no guarantee that draftee would be an upgrade on Flacco.
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 40-50% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.




  2. #92
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonwalkJenkins View Post
    This isn't true at all. The Patriots drafted a Mallet, 49ers Kaepernick, Seattle drafted Russel Wilson, even the Broncos just drafted a QB in the 2nd round. Its standard practice in this league to draft a QB in 2-3 rounds and try to develop them. If nothing else, you have a very good trade chip to strengthen your roster elsewhere since QB's are so valuable.

    The Ravens can lock up Flacco but they really should have drafted someone in the past couple years to at least see what they could develop while Flacco matured.
    Thanks for the details. Our FO is like our QB: good, but not great.




  3. #93

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 30% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.
    Its a trickle down effect... Is Ed Reed worth his current contract? Ray Lewis? Boldin? Oz is truly gonna have to make some franchise altering decisions. Will they be the right ones? Hmmm.....

    One thing I do know is you gotta hit on your 2nd & 3rd round picks more times than not now if you wanna be a SB contender. Those guys are cheap when it comes to the salary cap, and if they're good, they can take you over the top (ie. Texans). Ravens.... Mmmmm.. some goods hits and some bad misses of late.




  4. #94

    Why Joe's the problem

    He is in his 5th season, has WR targets with speed and size and a good RB who catch out of the backfeild, but they still look lethargic on offense. We blame Cam, but it's Joe who can change the play and read the defense. If the offense isnt working, it's his job to tell
    Cam "this isnt working, we need to change and I'm not running this play, or we will play at this tempo." But he doesn't. He isn't man enough to do so. It's HIS offense, his contract, he can tell Cam to take a flying leap if he chooses. I just don't see enough confidence or leadership in him to take over a struggling offense, his job.
    As Johnny U said ' If you cant tell your coach to go to hell, you won't be a NFL Qb"

    I'll never forget the game in the playoffs where Manning and the Colts where big favorites vs Pittsburgh and trailing big with a 4th and 8 and Dungy sent the punt team on in the 4th Q, and Manning motioned them off the feild, got the TD. Then set the Colts up later for game tying FG, but Vanderjagt missed it. That was leadership and you knew who was in charge. Joe does not remotely have that
    type of personality.




  5. #95

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    Its a trickle down effect... Is Ed Reed worth his current contract? Ray Lewis? Boldin? Oz is truly gonna have to make some franchise altering decisions. Will they be the right ones? Hmmm.....

    One thing I do know is you gotta hit on your 2nd & 3rd round picks more times than not now if you wanna be a SB contender. Those guys are cheap when it comes to the salary cap, and if they're good, they can take you over the top (ie. Texans). Ravens.... Mmmmm.. some goods hits and some bad misses of late.
    Well, Ray is a special case (team leader and coach on the field and legend), and we still let him shop himself around. Reed, I agree, is going to ask for more than he is worth. But we'll see how the Ravens handle it. I suspect they handle it the same way as they did Ray except maybe not even match the competing offers (expect hometown discount). Now Boldin....wouldn't surprise me at all if the team parts ways, and I mean next year, let alone in terms of 2014 free agency.

    But QB money is way bigger (gauranteed especially) and therefore is way more risky. There is also a more likely chance that some dumb team will just blatantly overpay for a QB, even if it is foolish.

    I agree about the draft and the importance of keeping the quality(performance)-to-price ratio high. It is crucial.




  6. #96

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    There are obviously other options.

    Regardless of how good you think Flacco is, one option is to pay a guy who is only 75% as good as Flacco only 40-50% of what Flacco would cost and spend the difference on other positions. Regardless of whether you think Flacco is better than Alex Smith, the issue is whether he is worth twice as much as an Alex Smith, or an aging veteran (like McNair going 13-3) because that might be what Flacco demands.

    The thing about the "we won't let him walk" statement is that it ignores the possibility that Joe asks for too much. There obviously is and should be a line to be drawn in terms of what to pay him. People that say "we will definitely lock him up" don't really ever mention exactly what they mean. I assume they mean both sides will be "reasonable," but I am not so sure Flacco's side will. I think if it had been, a deal already would have been signed.

    So again, let's say Joe wants 6 years - $100M with $35M guaranteed? Yes or no? To me that is clearly not a "no brainer" decision. In fact, I could easily see myself passing on that, if it were up to me, depending on how we finish the year.
    I like this line of thought.

    It really amazes me what Jim Harbaugh has accomplished with that team. He took what everybody thought was a first round bust and turned him into a dependable and serviceable, if somewhat limited, QB. I'd take that system here in a heartbeat.

    With Flacco... if the Ravens keep Cam, is there anyone who thinks we'll ever get much better than what we've gotten? If they get rid of Cam, are we SURE Flacco will be better? Sure enough to spend a sizable percentage of the cap on it?

    Let's see how the season ends up. This team may have had a fire lit under it today, or it may crumble, or something in between. All I know is that road Joe inexplicably showed up at M&T today, and I hope I don't see that again. Must be karma for the last couple of acceptably passable road games...




  7. #97
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    I think if Joe Flacco did what Peyton Manning did (and Johnny U), Harbaugh would freak the fuck out at him whether they converted or not.




  8. #98
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleApocalypse37 View Post
    I think if Joe Flacco did what Peyton Manning did (and Johnny U), Harbaugh would freak the fuck out at him whether they converted or not.
    Then Joe should tell Harbs to go screw himself. Joe is suppose to be the leader of the offense and from what I can see is anything but. If he wants to en elite QB then he should act like one but I simply do not believe that the has the leadership trait.




  9. #99

    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    So Flacco isnt Manning (or Johnny U)... either is about 99% of QBs ever in the league. kind of hard to compare the two (or three).
    -JAB




  10. #100

    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    The talent on offense is overrated. Period.




  11. #101

    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    "He isn't man enough to do so." That line sums up your post, and the post of the thousands of drooling idiots that patrol the city of Baltimore waiting for the Ravens to lose so they have a chance to spit on Joe Flacco not only as a player, but as a person.

    Who in the hell are you to decide someone's courage, manhood, whatever? You are a guy on the internet. You know nothing about what is happening on this team behind the scenes. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

    I don't know what "the problem with Flacco" is, but I know what "the problem with people LIKE YOU" is. No matter how much you protest otherwise, for SOME reason, it simply appears that you hate him as a person. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't conclude otherwise. And there are THOUSANDS of people like you around this town. I've never been able to conclusively figure it out--why do so many people simply hate Flacco? Why do so many people constantly harp on how ugly he is, how stupid he is, how he doesn't have any balls, or whatever? It's one thing to hate on his play, but he's a member of this team and this community, yet he doesn't get accorded the basic respect that other Ravens seem to get no matter what they do or how bad they screw up on the field.




  12. #102
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    "He isn't man enough to do so." That line sums up your post, and the post of the thousands of drooling idiots that patrol the city of Baltimore waiting for the Ravens to lose so they have a chance to spit on Joe Flacco not only as a player, but as a person.

    Who in the hell are you to decide someone's courage, manhood, whatever? You are a guy on the internet. You know nothing about what is happening on this team behind the scenes. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

    I don't know what "the problem with Flacco" is, but I know what "the problem with people LIKE YOU" is. No matter how much you protest otherwise, for SOME reason, it simply appears that you hate him as a person. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't conclude otherwise. And there are THOUSANDS of people like you around this town. I've never been able to conclusively figure it out--why do so many people simply hate Flacco? Why do so many people constantly harp on how ugly he is, how stupid he is, how he doesn't have any balls, or whatever? It's one thing to hate on his play, but he's a member of this team and this community, yet he doesn't get accorded the basic respect that other Ravens seem to get no matter what they do or how bad they screw up on the field.

    I agree with this statement. It is certainly one thing to knock Flacco's on the field play and his performance, but to judge him as a person and if he is man enough, certainly isn't fair. I think Flacco is man enough, but is perhaps under wraps by the head coach which could explain any visible signs you're seeing, but cannot account for what goes on in the locker room where we as fans have no idea what Flacco is saying/doing.
    Flacco may be part of the offenses problems, but to blame him solely for the it's failures is ridiculous. I'm by far a Flacco apologist, however its evident there are further problems than #5's struggles.
    Last edited by palukaraven; 12-03-2012 at 09:34 AM.




  13. #103
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by RD52 View Post
    The talent on offense is overrated. Period.


    Sadly, this sums it up.

    What legit top-shelf players do we really have on offense? IMO...

    * Ray Rice
    * Marshal Yanda

    That's it.

    Perhaps on their best days maybe we could also include:

    * Joe Flacco
    * Torrey Smith
    * Vontae Leach (is actually top-shelf but as a FB his contributions are limited)

    This is enough offense to win some games. It's also limited enough that we can't count on it as a team strength. We have some pretty big holes on our offensive line, and of course the whole clown car is weighed down by Cam Cam and his "Everyone Go Deep" offense. I remember that play from second grade recess.




  14. #104
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Teavo View Post


    Sadly, this sums it up.

    What legit top-shelf players do we really have on offense? IMO...

    * Ray Rice
    * Marshal Yanda

    That's it.

    Perhaps on their best days maybe we could also include:

    * Joe Flacco
    * Torrey Smith
    * Vontae Leach (is actually top-shelf but as a FB his contributions are limited)

    This is enough offense to win some games. It's also limited enough that we can't count on it as a team strength. We have some pretty big holes on our offensive line, and of course the whole clown car is weighed down by Cam Cam and his "Everyone Go Deep" offense. I remember that play from second grade recess.
    I don't think that the talent (overall) on offense is anything really different than several other teams, who are achieving offensive success.

    The current talent just isn't being used to their strengths.
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  15. #105
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    Re: Why Joe's the problem

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    "He isn't man enough to do so." That line sums up your post, and the post of the thousands of drooling idiots that patrol the city of Baltimore waiting for the Ravens to lose so they have a chance to spit on Joe Flacco not only as a player, but as a person.

    Who in the hell are you to decide someone's courage, manhood, whatever? You are a guy on the internet. You know nothing about what is happening on this team behind the scenes. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.

    I don't know what "the problem with Flacco" is, but I know what "the problem with people LIKE YOU" is. No matter how much you protest otherwise, for SOME reason, it simply appears that you hate him as a person. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I can't conclude otherwise. And there are THOUSANDS of people like you around this town. I've never been able to conclusively figure it out--why do so many people simply hate Flacco? Why do so many people constantly harp on how ugly he is, how stupid he is, how he doesn't have any balls, or whatever? It's one thing to hate on his play, but he's a member of this team and this community, yet he doesn't get accorded the basic respect that other Ravens seem to get no matter what they do or how bad they screw up on the field.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger



    Check out Fatherhood Rules - a blog site dedicated to sports, food, music, movies, and politics.
    http://fatherhoodrules.com




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