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  1. #31
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    Re: What is Joe worth?



    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
    Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
    That's what Elite QB's do

    although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

    Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?

    The point is there are very few QB's who can carry a team (Brady, Peyton, Ben, Rogers...)

    I don't think Flacco is going to carry you to a SB, so you better be able to afford premium talent (defensive) elsewhere to make the TEAM successful.
    You should have choked more. QB's don't win SB's. Teams do. The "elite" E. Manning needed a miracle ball-to-helmet catch from a bit player to win the first time. Brady and P. Manning rode their running games and defenses to SB victories, and the two years the Patriots relied on Brady to win they lost to E. Manning and the Giants. Both Giants victories stemmed more from the dominance of their defensive lines in those years than the offensive prowess of their QB- and in both E. Manning's biggest plays involve heroic catches.

    The opening salvo in the Ravens victory was a long touchdown pass from Dilfer to Stokely, something which never seems to get mentioned in recounts of that demolishment of the Giants by the Ravens.

    The closest I've ever seen a QB come to winning a SB was Elway in the '80s. Those Broncos teams weren't bad, but they wouldn't have sniffed the SB without Elway. The Bengals and Browns both were better teams in those years.

    The "elite" arguments are mostly garbage. Flacco's a good quarterback. He's not a great one. You don't need to be a great quarterback to win Super Bowls. Troy Aikman has three rings, and he wasn't great, imo. He was very good, however. Great players, and this includes QB's, make those around them better. P.Manning and Brady are both great. Roethlisberger is sort-of great: in certain situations he is. In others, not so much. He won his first SB handing the ball off to Bettis and Fast Willie. He's the best I've ever seen after getting hit by a defender. He's good otherwise. In situations where other QB's would be on the ground (including P.Manning and Brady), Roethlisberger is still able to make plays downfield.

    Flacco has some of that ability to shake off would-be sackers, but not close to Roethlisberger. He's more like Daunte Culpepper: he's big enough you need to get a solid hit or grab on him, but he lacks the lower body strength of Roethlisberger to just tear out of the grasp or absorb and bounce off of hard hits. He has a stronger, more accurate arm than Roethlisberger, however, and when both have time to survey the field I think Flacco is the better QB.




  2. #32

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Really, this is what elite QB's do?



    Now go away troll.
    You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

    It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

    Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.




  3. #33
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

    It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

    Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.
    You had more than one point.

    First point was Flacco is not "elite" thus he won't carry us to a Super Bowl. And "elite" QB's win super bowls in their second year. In his second year, Big Jen was anything but, especially in the Super Bowl.
    We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid. - Benjamin Franklin




  4. #34
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

    It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

    Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.
    Flacco contributed to the win in San Diego. The entire game wasn't just Rice running for 30 yards. He hit a number of big third downs before and after that play, and it wasn't his play that backed the Ravens up to 4th and 29.

    But I agree with your point: the Ravens can't afford to overpay Flacco, and he's not going to be a top 5 QB if his contract freezes out getting and keeping good players.




  5. #35

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...

    Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....
    Kyle Boller is available too.




  6. #36

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by PerpetuallyBored74 View Post
    Replace Titans and Seahawks with Vikings and Jets, and you're right on the money.
    No way the Jets would give up on Mark Sanchez. If they won't bench him with all this going on, they aren't replacing him yet.

    The Vikings I thought about, but the Seahawks would change QB's before the Vikings.




  7. #37

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

    It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

    Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

    The Ravens are great because Flacco is a great QB. Flacco is great because he plays on a great team.

    "Elite" is the koolaid that media hands out to numb brains like yourself.

    Is Flacco amongst the greatest QB to ever play? Only time will tell that story. Elway didn't become legendary until the end of his career.


    Elway was a winner.
    Unitas was a winner.
    Flacco is a winner!




  8. #38

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Woah.... Wait a second. First you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
    Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
    That's what Elite QB's do
    Then you said:

    although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

    Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?
    You realize the main reason Ben not only went to the SB but one it was on the back of Jerome Bettis right? Because "elite" QB's also don't have the lowest pass attempt and pass yardage stats in the entire league the year they win a SuperBowl.

    So if we are going to be fair here, then Ben Rothlisberger is NOT the reason the Steelers won that SB. And if we are comparing stats, then Ben Rothlisberger was NOT an "elite" QB that year. In fact, Joe Flacco's overall stats were BETTER than Ben's that year. So if Ben was "elite", then so was Joe.




  9. #39

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    I am pretty sure I said that I didn't want to see him go. The point I am making is Joe's contract is damned if you do and if you don't. If you break the bank and pay him similar to Drew Brees, which I am sure his agent is aiming for, you don't have the money to put the talent around him that he needs to succeed. If you don't pay him your without a QB. Either way your not winning.
    I know you weren't. It was more a general question. I think Joe will get the number that works for him and works for the Ravens cap too. I tend to think guys like Joe and Rice realize that while they want to get paid, it has to be to a point that they can keep the other weapons that make the offense work. We shall see.


    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...


    Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....
    Heh.




  10. #40
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by rharris1986 View Post
    What is a quarterback worth who has won 58 of his last 84 games - that's a 69% winning percentage. There is NO quarterback in the NFL who has won more games over the same period.
    and you were cussing and spitting with each win -ha! It's Cam's fault that Joe won all those games ya know...
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  11. #41

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post

    Is Flacco amongst the greatest QB to ever play? Only time will tell that story. Elway didn't become legendary until the end of his career.

    Elway won NFL MVP his 5th year. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.




  12. #42

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Elway won NFL MVP his 5th year. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
    True, but also didn't win a Super Bowl until his final year.




  13. #43

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    True, but also didn't win a Super Bowl until his final year.
    He won a SB his second-to-last year. Then again in his final year. But you are right that none were won until the end. But SB's are team achievements anyway, and Denver got there after Elway's 4th, 5th, 7th, 15th, and 16th seasons, winning the last two. Bottomline is, Elway was one of the league's best from early in his career, throughout his career, with some obvious ups and downs based on randomness and his surrounding talent.




  14. #44

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    So tired of hearing how Joe Flacco is responsible for the Ravens winning %
    The fact is that Joe has been consitently ranked in the 15-20 range (based on QB rating).
    He has been bad on the road, and bad in the majority of the Ravens playoff games.
    We can get to the playoffs with Joe, but I don't think he'll ever win the SB
    Here are the top 10 all-time QBR for a season:

    Aaron Rodgers (2011) 122.5 Lost in divisional round
    Peyton Manning (2004) 121.1 Lost in divisional round
    Tom Brady (2007) 117.2 Lost in the Super Bowl
    Steve Young (1994) 112.8 Super Bowl champions
    Tom Brady (2010) 111.0 Lost in the divisional round
    Daunte Culpepper (2004) 110.9 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2011) 110.6 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2009) 109.6 Super Bowl champions
    Kurt Warner (1999) 109.2 Super Bowl champions
    Dan Marino (1984) 108.9 Lost in Super Bowl




  15. #45

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Here are the top 10 all-time QBR for a season:

    Aaron Rodgers (2011) 122.5 Lost in divisional round
    Peyton Manning (2004) 121.1 Lost in divisional round
    Tom Brady (2007) 117.2 Lost in the Super Bowl
    Steve Young (1994) 112.8 Super Bowl champions
    Tom Brady (2010) 111.0 Lost in the divisional round
    Daunte Culpepper (2004) 110.9 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2011) 110.6 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2009) 109.6 Super Bowl champions
    Kurt Warner (1999) 109.2 Super Bowl champions
    Dan Marino (1984) 108.9 Lost in Super Bowl
    The problem with your data is that he didn't say he was pessimistic because Joe isn't ranked #1 in QBR and SB winners are required to be (or even usually are).

    Here is better data to support his point:

    Over the last 25 years, SB winning QBs, and their QB rating rank for the year:

    2011 E. Manning (7)
    2010 Rodgers (3)
    2009 Brees (1)
    2008 Roethlisberger (24)
    2007 E.Manning (25)
    2006 P.Manning (1)
    2005 Roethlisberger (3)
    2004 Brady (9)
    2003 Brady (10)
    2002 Johnson (3)
    2001 Brady (6)
    2000 Dilfer (20)
    1999 Warner (1)
    1998 Elway (5)
    1997 Elway (7)
    1996 Favre (2)
    1995 Aikman (3)
    1994 Young (1)
    1993 Aikman (2)
    1992 Aikman (3)
    1991 Rypien (2)
    1990 Simms* (4)
    1989 Montana (1)
    1988 Montana (6)

    As you can see, out of 24 winners, only 3 are ranked outside the top 10, including Dilfer.

    * - Hostetler finished season and played in playoffs and SB.




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