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  1. #256
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco



    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?
    Passes thrown too high on a consistent basis is on Caldwell to work with Joe on. What do we pay this man for? However, this does not justify or excuse Cam from not playing the middle of the field. That's on Cam, not Flacco.




  2. #257
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by lobachevsky View Post
    A pass thrown too high on a sideline pattern falls harmlessly out of bounds. A pass thrown too high in the middle of the field has PICK ME written all over it. Y'think there maybe might be a reason Cam doesn't call routes over the middle?
    Several of those high-sailing passes to the sideline are also because Flacco has no choice but to try and put it in a position where a Raven receiver might have a shot at it.

    Defenders all season have been undercutting a lot of those sideline routes. If Flacco were to NOT throw it high, it would almost surely be a pick.
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  3. #258
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    I think Flacco's problems are an indictment of Harbaugh. Championship teams have symbiotic relationships that exist between HC and quarterback, from Walsh/Montana to Parcells/Simms to even Ditka/McMahon. Modern day you can name Belichek/Brady, Mccarthy/Rodgers and even Tomlin/Roethlisberger. At some point, the Head Coach has to entrust his franchise quarterback to make a play and win a game. Not only that, the entire team has to know that the quarterback is the man, and that his HC is behind him. Not some coordinator. I'm waiting for that day when Flacco changes a play that Cam calls, comes to sidelines, gets reprimanded by him and says "fuck you!" in front of the whole team. But that day will never come, because Harbaugh would never support him. He still thinks its all about the coaches. If I'm Flacco, I'm out.




  4. #259

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    I'm also waiting for Joe to step up his game but it's hard for him to do that in a system that takes away that step. Part of me is wishing Joe could just take on a "screw this and I'm taking over mentality" and elevate his game in spite of Cam looking over his shoulder. Wishful thinking on my part. Joe has certainly had an up and down season. Mechanically he can make all the throws but for some odd reason I think his deep throws down the middle of the field have a little too much air in them. That's probably just my "eye" test.
    While I hope we finish strong I'm anxious to see how life without Cam turns out for Joe. He's not being put in a position to succeed so his margin for error is very minute.




  5. #260

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Chris Collingsworth pointed out in the first Ravens/Steelers game how Steelers had Ike Taylor playing over the top of Torrey and having Ryan Clark undercut the route, next game against San Diego they did the exact same thing, Balt/Pitt II? Pitt drop the LB's to undercut those routes.

    3 games in a row, 3 similar game-plans for stopping the sideline attack, 1 game (SD) where they decided to use the middle of the field when they were forced to.




  6. #261
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

    That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

    When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.




  7. #262

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Like most people on this board, I'd like to see Joe work with a new OC. But, in order to do that, Cameron will have to go and Joe will have to be re-signed or tagged. The problem with the re-sign is obviouse (hugh chunk of money) and the problem with the tag is that the one year average for QB pay will be somewhere between $16-20M. Can the Ravens afford that without blowing up the rest of the team for years to come? I'm not sure of the solution, but will one extra year of Joe with a new OC tell us enough?




  8. #263

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    Look at Joe in 2010. He had a very good year with 25 TD/10 INT and a QBR in the low 90s. 4 of the 5 receivers that he used most that year (Stallworth, Mason, Housh, Heap) are out of the league, so I think it's a safe assessment that his progress was genuine and not a byproduct of having extreme talent around him.

    That was the Jim Zorn year though, where he had a buffer between him and our idiot O.C. I think a lot of our expectations were based on that year, where Joe was given a support structure more similar to what is given to other teams. Since Zorn was ridiculously fired, Joe has played okay, but is definitely more similar to a middle-of-the-pack QB than a top 6-8 guy.

    When you look at it in this llight, it does make you wonder how much of his lack of progress you can really blame on him. We have tried to draft pieces to help him, yet haven't given him the one thing that any QB needs to grow...competent coaching. What does it say about Harbaugh that Flacco showed such solid progress between year #2 and #3 and then his position coach is fired? I guess that should have been the precursor to the fact that merit is not a factor in coaching evaluations within the organization.
    Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

    We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

    And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?




  9. #264
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

    We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.


    And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?
    You bring up a very interesting point.

    I'd like to piggy back on this and state that they have further limited themselves by not maintaining a power run-blocking offensive line. So, when the passing game doesn't necessarily work out and they are forced to run the rock...they can't. They hardly EVER run behind Oher and Jah (or whoever is playing LG). I don't think that is a coincidence, but it is an issue because if a majority of the runs are going behind Yanda and KO, then that - once again - makes the offense even easier to predict from a defensive stance.
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  10. #265

    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Completely agree with everything here. But another thing that changed after 2010 is that Joe is being asked or allowed to throw it a lot more. He had 53 more attempts in 2011 over 2010 (489 to 542, an increase of 10.8%) and only had 6 more completions to show for them (and 5 less TDs and 2 more INTs).

    We played better defenses overall in 2011 so that could be part of it along with Zorn getting fired as you said, but I think the going pass happy (relatively) might have been by design to see if it could be handled. Obviously with Cameron, no Zorn, different supporting cast, tougher defenses, it didn't pan out.

    And this year he is on pace for a further increase to 568 attempts. I have no idea why we are throwing so much more, but it could be to evaluate Flacco before the big contract committment. But as you and others have mentioned, the coaching may (probably does) prevent any fair assessment of his abilities. Simply passing more in a flawed scheme is not a good test. In this case it has lead to more incompletions (lower completion percentage) and therefore a lower QBR, but what does that really tell us considering our scheme/coaching?
    I think one of Joe's problems is that he is telegraphing his plays. Defenders are sitting on his routes. He is getting more experienced, but his tendencies are starting to show more as well.

    I don't like to compare Joe to a guy like Peyton Manning, but look at part of what makes Manning so successful. You don't know what that guy is going to do. His team looks like they are going through a chinese fire drill at the line of scrimmage while he is barking out all sorts of crazy jibberish. Most of that is just for show. Their #1 priority is to confuse the defense. Even if they do end up in a regular set and run a regular play after the show, they have managed to create some confusion and misdirection in the defense.

    The Ravens defense used to do something similar back in its hey day. Jumping around, changing positions, you didn't know where the blitz was coming from. Did it give them an edge? It certainly seemed like it.

    Maybe this team needs a little organized chaos on the offensive side of the ball. Like Peyton.




  11. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Several of those high-sailing passes to the sideline are also because Flacco has no choice but to try and put it in a position where a Raven receiver might have a shot at it.

    Defenders all season have been undercutting a lot of those sideline routes. If Flacco were to NOT throw it high, it would almost surely be a pick.
    Exactly this.

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  12. #267
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
    Maybe this team needs a little organized chaos on the offensive side of the ball. Like Peyton.
    The Ravens need to at least do what the Chargers did against us last year and include more pre-snap motion in their offense. If you know you want a three receiver set with two wide-outs on the strong side, line the slot up on the weak and motion him over. At least Flacco and the receivers will get information about the coverage before the snap.




  13. #268
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    I went back and watched the All 22 last night.

    On the strip sack there was no one open. Flacco held the ball for three seconds and was about to take off or just take a sack when he got hit.

    The Steelers D was in 2 man under with a 3 man rush, which means safeties deep covering each half and 6 players in man coverage underneath. Oher was beaten cleanly by Harrison.

    Flacco was throwing off his back foot all night. There was at least 6 or 7 plays that were designed to be sideline throws. The Steelers did not blitz at all on these early down throws which left their OLB's shooting underneath these routes. It was easy to see that Joe felt rushed to get the throw off. I thought Cam called a great play in the first quarter to Boldin on a post which Flacco just overthrew. He called it there and never came back to it.

    I'm a Joe supporter but he was just off on Sunday. His room for error was very small but he didn't play up to par. We actually ran the ball pretty well. I don't understand why we continued to throw the ball.

    One other thing... for Torrey Smith to become a great receiver he needs to improve his "Go Get It". "Go Get It" is when the ball is perfectly thrown and the receiver needs to time his jump and grab the ball at it's highest point. Torrey does not do this. If the ball is a bit under thrown or misplaced he just slows down or bends his route, he is always trying to catch the ball in stride. Sometimes you need to turn and jump and grab that ball.




  14. #269
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by JMUpurkfool View Post
    Sometimes you need to turn and jump and grab that ball.
    Torrey did that in the San Diego game to basically win the game. Not sure why he wasn't in the Steelers game.




  15. #270
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    Re: I'm losing my faith in Joe Flacco

    Quote Originally Posted by Paintballguy View Post
    Torrey did that in the San Diego game to basically win the game. Not sure why he wasn't in the Steelers game.
    He does a better job on the fade routes but he never does that on the posts. He has almost allowed two interceptions against the Steelers on this route because he was waiting for the ball to come down while the DB jumped to get the ball at it's highest point.




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