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  1. #37

    Re: What is Joe worth?



    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    You make my point for me... Ben did not win the superbowl, anymore than Joe Flacco won the New England game that Ray Rice ran for 200 yards... or last week when Ray Rice turned a checkdown into a 30 yard game.

    It's a team game, if Joe Flacco gets a top 5 QB salary the team talent and record will decline, even Ben and Brady are struggling to get to the SB now that they consume a large % of theire teams cap.

    Just think the Ravens need to be very careful in how much money they give to Flacco. Sorry if my opinion doensn't align with your view of the world.

    The Ravens are great because Flacco is a great QB. Flacco is great because he plays on a great team.

    "Elite" is the koolaid that media hands out to numb brains like yourself.

    Is Flacco amongst the greatest QB to ever play? Only time will tell that story. Elway didn't become legendary until the end of his career.


    Elway was a winner.
    Unitas was a winner.
    Flacco is a winner!




  2. #38

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Woah.... Wait a second. First you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    Big Ben won the superbowl in his second year
    Eli Manning won the suberbowl in his third year
    That's what Elite QB's do
    Then you said:

    although I choke on giving a single player credit for a team accomplishment.

    Did Trent Dilfer win a Super Bowl?
    You realize the main reason Ben not only went to the SB but one it was on the back of Jerome Bettis right? Because "elite" QB's also don't have the lowest pass attempt and pass yardage stats in the entire league the year they win a SuperBowl.

    So if we are going to be fair here, then Ben Rothlisberger is NOT the reason the Steelers won that SB. And if we are comparing stats, then Ben Rothlisberger was NOT an "elite" QB that year. In fact, Joe Flacco's overall stats were BETTER than Ben's that year. So if Ben was "elite", then so was Joe.




  3. #39

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey View Post
    I am pretty sure I said that I didn't want to see him go. The point I am making is Joe's contract is damned if you do and if you don't. If you break the bank and pay him similar to Drew Brees, which I am sure his agent is aiming for, you don't have the money to put the talent around him that he needs to succeed. If you don't pay him your without a QB. Either way your not winning.
    I know you weren't. It was more a general question. I think Joe will get the number that works for him and works for the Ravens cap too. I tend to think guys like Joe and Rice realize that while they want to get paid, it has to be to a point that they can keep the other weapons that make the offense work. We shall see.


    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Alex Smith might be available. Just sayin'...


    Q, ripping me a new one for my semi-serious semi joke in 3,2....
    Heh.




  4. #40
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    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by rharris1986 View Post
    What is a quarterback worth who has won 58 of his last 84 games - that's a 69% winning percentage. There is NO quarterback in the NFL who has won more games over the same period.
    and you were cussing and spitting with each win -ha! It's Cam's fault that Joe won all those games ya know...
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  5. #41

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post

    Is Flacco amongst the greatest QB to ever play? Only time will tell that story. Elway didn't become legendary until the end of his career.

    Elway won NFL MVP his 5th year. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.




  6. #42

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Elway won NFL MVP his 5th year. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
    True, but also didn't win a Super Bowl until his final year.




  7. #43

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    True, but also didn't win a Super Bowl until his final year.
    He won a SB his second-to-last year. Then again in his final year. But you are right that none were won until the end. But SB's are team achievements anyway, and Denver got there after Elway's 4th, 5th, 7th, 15th, and 16th seasons, winning the last two. Bottomline is, Elway was one of the league's best from early in his career, throughout his career, with some obvious ups and downs based on randomness and his surrounding talent.




  8. #44

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by webbrick2007 View Post
    So tired of hearing how Joe Flacco is responsible for the Ravens winning %
    The fact is that Joe has been consitently ranked in the 15-20 range (based on QB rating).
    He has been bad on the road, and bad in the majority of the Ravens playoff games.
    We can get to the playoffs with Joe, but I don't think he'll ever win the SB
    Here are the top 10 all-time QBR for a season:

    Aaron Rodgers (2011) 122.5 Lost in divisional round
    Peyton Manning (2004) 121.1 Lost in divisional round
    Tom Brady (2007) 117.2 Lost in the Super Bowl
    Steve Young (1994) 112.8 Super Bowl champions
    Tom Brady (2010) 111.0 Lost in the divisional round
    Daunte Culpepper (2004) 110.9 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2011) 110.6 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2009) 109.6 Super Bowl champions
    Kurt Warner (1999) 109.2 Super Bowl champions
    Dan Marino (1984) 108.9 Lost in Super Bowl




  9. #45

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Here are the top 10 all-time QBR for a season:

    Aaron Rodgers (2011) 122.5 Lost in divisional round
    Peyton Manning (2004) 121.1 Lost in divisional round
    Tom Brady (2007) 117.2 Lost in the Super Bowl
    Steve Young (1994) 112.8 Super Bowl champions
    Tom Brady (2010) 111.0 Lost in the divisional round
    Daunte Culpepper (2004) 110.9 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2011) 110.6 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2009) 109.6 Super Bowl champions
    Kurt Warner (1999) 109.2 Super Bowl champions
    Dan Marino (1984) 108.9 Lost in Super Bowl
    The problem with your data is that he didn't say he was pessimistic because Joe isn't ranked #1 in QBR and SB winners are required to be (or even usually are).

    Here is better data to support his point:

    Over the last 25 years, SB winning QBs, and their QB rating rank for the year:

    2011 E. Manning (7)
    2010 Rodgers (3)
    2009 Brees (1)
    2008 Roethlisberger (24)
    2007 E.Manning (25)
    2006 P.Manning (1)
    2005 Roethlisberger (3)
    2004 Brady (9)
    2003 Brady (10)
    2002 Johnson (3)
    2001 Brady (6)
    2000 Dilfer (20)
    1999 Warner (1)
    1998 Elway (5)
    1997 Elway (7)
    1996 Favre (2)
    1995 Aikman (3)
    1994 Young (1)
    1993 Aikman (2)
    1992 Aikman (3)
    1991 Rypien (2)
    1990 Simms* (4)
    1989 Montana (1)
    1988 Montana (6)

    As you can see, out of 24 winners, only 3 are ranked outside the top 10, including Dilfer.

    * - Hostetler finished season and played in playoffs and SB.




  10. #46

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Here are the top 10 all-time QBR for a season:

    Aaron Rodgers (2011) 122.5 Lost in divisional round
    Peyton Manning (2004) 121.1 Lost in divisional round
    Tom Brady (2007) 117.2 Lost in the Super Bowl
    Steve Young (1994) 112.8 Super Bowl champions
    Tom Brady (2010) 111.0 Lost in the divisional round
    Daunte Culpepper (2004) 110.9 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2011) 110.6 Lost in the divisional round
    Drew Brees (2009) 109.6 Super Bowl champions
    Kurt Warner (1999) 109.2 Super Bowl champions
    Dan Marino (1984) 108.9 Lost in Super Bowl
    That seems to show a fairly strong correlation between high QB rating and playoff/SB success.

    Looking at it another way, here is the season QB rating of the SB winning QB's

    2012 Eli Manning 92.9
    2011 Aaron Rodgers 101.2
    2010 Drew Brees 109.6
    2009 Ben R. 80.1
    2008 Eli Manning 86.5
    2007 P. Manning 101.0
    2005 Tom Brady 92.6
    2004 Tom Brady 85.9
    2003 Brad Johnson 92.9
    2002 Tom Brady 86.5

    So if Joe Flacco and his present 87 rating were to win the Super Bowl he would have a higher rating than 4 of the past 10 winners.

    Interesting two of those would be a young Tom Brady... who although a superior rated QB has had difficulty getting back to the Super Bowl... perhaps because he now commands a large % of his teams cap and the NE talent (especially on defense) in no where near what it was 10 years ago?




  11. #47

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The problem with your data is that he didn't say he was pessimistic because Joe isn't ranked #1 in QBR and SB winners are required to be (or even usually are).

    Here is better data to support his point:

    Over the last 25 years, SB winning QBs, and their QB rating rank for the year:

    As you can see, out of 24 winners, only 3 are ranked outside the top 10, including Dilfer.
    Fair enough...he also said Flacco is "consistently in the 15-20 range". Here are Flacco's ratings and where they rank that season:

    2008 82.8 16th
    2009 87.4 13th
    2010 93.6 6th
    2011 81.7 15th

    He's as likely to be rated 15-20 as he is to be rated higher. And 15-20 to me implies "below average", if even slightly; and that is not the case.




  12. #48

    Re: What is Joe worth?

    Personally I think he's worth about what Eli got. I really don't see Eli as any better than Flacco. Both can take over when handed the reigns and it's critical time, both have alot of bad games. Eli is in a much more pass happy O. Eli caught lucky breaks and has 2 rings that Flacco doesn't, but than again Joe was let down twice that could've led to SB berths.




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