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  1. #136

    Re: This is INSANITY



    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Hmm, never said that. Nor have I said that Cam can't - or shouldn't - be criticized. I have been very consistent throughout this thread - those that are saying that Flacco calls the plays in those situations where the offense has performed well are off base in that opinion. It's not Flacco calling the plays there, it's Cameron.

    Look, there are plenty of valid criticisms that can be leveled at Cameron, this one, however, is off base.
    Thank you for re-iterating your redundant point about flacco calling the plays. I say it and stand by it. What other explanations do you have for playcalling to do a complete 180 between road and home games? Because either way you look at it, it is the coaches fault. It may or may not be true, but its speculation based on very good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dade View Post
    Ok dude...

    Unless Cam is shown the door immediately the Ravens will chase the Bengals for years. Nothing else matters, no other factors can avoid this fate, except who is OC for the Ravens.

    It must be fun in your world.
    At what point have I said that we should get rid of Cam immediately? We are freaking 9-2 and playoff bound. That is just stupid. And now youre resorting to putting words in my mouth, not once, but twice.

    Like I said, our defense isnt the problem. Joe can take some of the blame for his occasional errant throw, but a lot of those throws are because our receivers never get open. Now, normally, you would place the blame on the receivers. However, "receivers not getting open" have been an issue now for what, 4 years? Weve had a number of receivers since then and its still the same tune. That is clearly the fault of coaching.

    In regards to the bengals, for the last time, they have a good defense and a good offense. Both, certainly good enough to win against us. Its only a matter of time before it starts being consistant and well, when you have Andy Dalton throwing for 9 TDs/0 Ints over 3 games after his coach called him out, thats when its time to start worrying about its consistency. On top of that, you have Andy Dalton out-performing Joe in just his 2nd year and not by just a little bit. Then you also have to take into account that Marvin Lewis is a very good coach and Mike Zimmer is a good DC. Them starting to contend for the division is bound to happen.

    To what Wickedsolo said:
    Carlos Dunlap has 1 game as a starter, total, and through 2.5 years has 16 sacks.
    Jermaine Gresham is having a better year than Vernon Davis and has steadily been better every year.
    Andre Smith is a bust and will be a FA this offseason
    Rey Maualuga is a pretty solid ILB and is having his best season to date.
    Keith Rivers isnt their issue anymore.

    Now, lets also talk about Leon Hall, Geno Atkins, Vontaze Burfict, etc.

    They also have a pretty highly ranked O-Line.

    I wasnt saying that they draft well and we draft bad. Never did, never implied it. Im just saying, that they have done well the past few drafts and have built a very solid team. Add on top of that, Andy Dalton playing lights out right now and we have a problem on our hands.
    Last edited by landspeed; 11-29-2012 at 12:13 AM.




  2. #137

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by StingerNLG View Post
    Not to mention our own deep threat Torrey Smith played with a hernia last year, and in his second year he has taken off and shown to be a game changer in his own right. AJ Green isn't the only stud receiver in the AFC North.

    Or the fact we picked up Jacoby Jones, who has been a punt returning stud and game changer for us both scoring-wise and field position-wise.

    Or Dennis Pitta who made his way up the depth chart and is now a great passing and red zone threat.

    But you know, we haven't done anything to improve our team and the Bengals have and unless we fire can we will never be ahead of them in the division ever again.


    When was that ever said.....? Seriously, stop putting words in my mouth, you just look ignorant. I said that we havent drafted as well as we normally do. And that is obvious, but we have acquired some good players.

    Cary Williams(forgot he was practice squad), Lardarius Webb, Ray Rice, Michael Oher(the RT version), Courtney Upshaw, Dannell Ellerbe, Jimmy Smith(still think he will be a star, once he is used correctly), etc.

    I dont understand where you got that from?

    And as good as Torrey Smith has been, their production isnt really comparable.




  3. #138

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    Thank you for re-iterating your redundant point about flacco calling the plays. I say it and stand by it. What other explanations do you have for playcalling to do a complete 180 between road and home games? Because either way you look at it, it is the coaches fault. It may or may not be true, but its speculation based on very good reason.
    And, thank you for re-iterate your complete baseless, uninformed point that the reason is because Flacco is calling the plays.

    Also, you've continually fail to address why the hurry up offense sucked on the road earlier in the year, if Flacco was calling those plays and the fact that the don't exclusively run up tempo when at home, but they still score well.

    There are plenty of possible reasons, other than Flacco calling the plays, for why the road offense is different - they play more conservatively (which is pretty obvious), teams generally play better at home, Flacco plays more timid on the road, the game plans on the road suck, Cam plays scared on the road (just to name a few).

    All are more valid reasons than your specious claim that they only do well because Flacco is calling the plays.

    Again, using the SD game as the example - which you, yourself used - HOF QB Dan Fouts acknowledged that Cam was calling the plays in crunch time and it was clearly obvious by watching that he was calling in the plays.

    It's OK, you can admit you're wrong - it happens - there's no shame in it. :grbac
    Last edited by B-more Ravor; 11-29-2012 at 12:43 AM.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  4. #139
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    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    LOL......watching the Ravens/Chargers on NFL Reply right now. On the Ravens first TD drive, while the Ravens are going no huddle, they showed Cameron several times with the card in front of his face calling plays and Dan Fouts even commented - while they were showing Cameron - that "everything he's calling is working right now".

    So, I guess a former NFL QB thinks that Cameron is calling the plays in that situation.

    On the game tying drive, you can also see Cam in the background holding the card in front of his face.
    I didnt not say every single play and every single game. Nor did I say that Joe is calling "his" own play. I have said Cam calls plays from the first 60 pages and Joe calls from the last 60.

    TV replay shows you jack squat. Home games or an all 22 shot will let you see if/when CAM has that card in front of his face on ALL play calls.

    I see it at home games because I am looking at the Ravens bench from the visitors side.

    Not sure what your reason is for such a battle. I value the information that you have on the CAP.

    But 5 years of the same system and the same results are getting to the point of absurd.

    Cam has always and will only be a AVG OC that cannot win the big one.

    There are times that Joe has to make a choices from a set of plays because

    A. Cam was to slow to get one in
    B. Cam gave Joe the set to choose from
    C. Joe checks out of what CAM called

    I would like to see
    D. Joe going Cam your an idiot and I am not resigning here unless your ass is gone.




  5. #140

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    And, thank you for re-iterate your complete baseless, uninformed point that the reason is because Flacco is calling the plays.

    Also, you've continually fail to address why the offense sucked on the road earlier in the year, if Flacco was calling those plays.

    There are plenty of possible reasons, other than Flacco calling the plays, for why the road offense is different - they play more conservatively (which is pretty obvious), teams generally play better at home, Flacco plays more timid on the road, the game plans on the road suck, Cam plays scared on the road (just to name a few).

    All are more valid reasons than your specious claim that they only do well because Flacco is calling the plays.

    Again, using the SD game as the example - which you, yourself used - HOF QB Dan Fouts acknowledged that Cam was calling the plays in crunch time and it was clearly obvious by watching that he was calling in the plays.

    It's OK, you can admit you're wrong - it happens - there's no shame in it. :grbac
    Because a no huddle offense isnt going to work 100% of the time? Because we were throwing it on 3rd and short after something like 7 straight attempts and failing? Because we werent using ray rice when he was averaging 5+ ypc? Because we werent getting him involved in the passing game? I never claimed that we should go 100% no-huddle. The point of me bringing up the no-huddle was because that is the only time we successfully move the ball. When Joe is in the shotgun, with the hurry up offense.

    My concerns are, WHY DONT WE USE THE SAME PLAYS FROM THE NO HUDDLE WHEN WERE NOT IN THE NO-HUDDLE? Why cant Joe be in the shotgun more often?

    I have no answer as to why the No Huddle fails from time to time. That still doesnt change the fact that the playcalling between the two are completely different. One effective 75% of the time its used, the other effective 10% of the time its used.




  6. #141

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensQB View Post
    I didnt not say every single play and every single game. Nor did I say that Joe is calling "his" own play. I have said Cam calls plays from the first 60 pages and Joe calls from the last 60.

    TV replay shows you jack squat. Home games or an all 22 shot will let you see if/when CAM has that card in front of his face on ALL play calls.

    I see it at home games because I am looking at the Ravens bench from the visitors side.

    Not sure what your reason is for such a battle.

    First off, it's not a battle.

    Second, you responded to one of my posts first. I am only responding to you.

    I never said that you said Joe was calling his own plays. I have been pretty clear throughout - Cam calls the plays. Joe can audible within the play, but he's not out there deciding which play or formation to run. Basically Cam gives him options and Joe takes it from there based on the set of the D.

    But, that's the case whether they are in no huddle, regular tempo of whatever. So, it's no different for no huddle or the reason for the success of the no huddle as was Landspeed original argument that I have taken issue with.

    Cam has always and will only be a AVG OC that cannot win the big one.

    There are times that Joe has to make a choices from a set of plays because
    We have no disagreement here. My only disagreement throughout this thread is that the success of the no huddle is because that's when Joe is calling the plays, without Cam.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  7. #142

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Our results are relative to the amount of risks we are willing to take. And as has been said, our standard, out of the gates philosophy is very conservative (too conservative, imo), especially on the road. And I don't just mean the playcalling (i.e Cam), I mean Joe's decision-making during the plays. The reason why we drive down the field much better when we are behind late in a game (no huddle and hurry-up) is a combination of the defense playing some form of prevent (trading yards for ticks of clock) combined with our offense having no choice but to be aggressive.




  8. #143

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    The point of me bringing up the no-huddle was because that is the only time we successfully move the ball. When Joe is in the shotgun, with the hurry up offense.
    There have been plenty of games - at home - where we're not using no huddle, but still running an efficient offense. I really don't think it's a no huddle versus a
    "huddle" offense isssue. I think it's more about how they handle, prepare and plan for road games. It's more of a home versus road issue IMO. Clearly, to me at least, since the Houston game, they've gone more conservative. The OL seems to protect better at home. Flacco also seems to get off to bad starts on the road and then can't seem to find his confidence.

    Now, I would agree that Flacco seems more comfortable in the no huddle - and shotgun - and that it is something they should try and use earlier to get him out of those type of road funks. Of course, that's the way they started the season and that didn't work much either. Perhaps, they gave up on it too early, I doubt know.

    Anyway, I just think it goes deeper than just huddle versus no huddle.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  9. #144

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Our results are relative to the amount of risks we are willing to take. And as has been said, our standard, out of the gates philosophy is very conservative (too conservative, imo), especially on the road. And I don't just mean the playcalling (i.e Cam), I mean Joe's decision-making during the plays. The reason why we drive down the field much better when we are behind late in a game (no huddle and hurry-up) is a combination of the defense playing some form of prevent (trading yards for ticks of clock) combined with our offense having no choice but to be aggressive.
    Yes, exactly.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  10. #145
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    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    First off, it's not a battle.

    Second, you responded to one of my posts first. I am only responding to you.

    I never said that you said Joe was calling his own plays. I have been pretty clear throughout - Cam calls the plays. Joe can audible within the play, but he's not out there deciding which play or formation to run. Basically Cam gives him options and Joe takes it from there based on the set of the D.

    But, that's the case whether they are in no huddle, regular tempo of whatever. So, it's no different for no huddle or the reason for the success of the no huddle as was Landspeed original argument that I have taken issue with.



    We have no disagreement here. My only disagreement throughout this thread is that the success of the no huddle is because that's when Joe is calling the plays, without Cam.
    He can never be truley not calling a play that is not from CAM, it is his playbook. Which in where the problem lies.

    The middle of the field is like the ABYSS. But for some reason Joes numbers are much better over the middle.

    Cam's constant calls of 999 or 989 routes get to the point of stupid. All WR going 30 yards down the field when the OL cant hold longer than an avg of 2.5-8 seconds.
    Very rare do you see the slants, crosses, picks, screens. But I guess he is saving them for the Superbowl.

    Hence the reseon for my sig.

    One thing for sure is CAM needs to call every game like we are down by 10!!!

    4th and 29 play was a MIRACLE. You only get one or two of those in a lifetime.

    So I would say the chance of doing that again would be like hitting the POWERBALL tonight.




  11. #146

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensQB View Post
    Which in where the problem lies.
    And, I'm not disgreeing with that part of the equation.

    I was only disagree with the part (not from you) that Joe is out there making all the decisions himself, without Cam, and that that's why we're better in those situations and/or explains the road versus home differential.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  12. #147

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    First off, it's not a battle.

    Second, you responded to one of my posts first. I am only responding to you.

    I never said that you said Joe was calling his own plays. I have been pretty clear throughout - Cam calls the plays. Joe can audible within the play, but he's not out there deciding which play or formation to run. Basically Cam gives him options and Joe takes it from there based on the set of the D.

    But, that's the case whether they are in no huddle, regular tempo of whatever. So, it's no different for no huddle or the reason for the success of the no huddle as was Landspeed original argument that I have taken issue with.
    Sorry bunk, but my argument has stayed original throughout. I havent deviated, Ive consistently said that makes the only sense. And when I said joes "calling the shots" that doesnt imply that he has his own playbook and tells which formation to run.

    Its exactly what you think it is, hes given certain plays and runs whichever one he thinks is best. I just want to know why cam never runs these same plays in order to suit Joe to his best strengths. Anyone who would actually think that joe gets no input whatsoever from the sidelines in these situations would be a dumbass.

    hence, "The only time this offense moves is when Joe is calling the shots," not "The only time this offense moves is when Joe busts out his personal playbook."




  13. #148

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    hence, "The only time this offense moves is when Joe is calling the shots," not "The only time this offense moves is when Joe busts out his personal playbook."
    The problem is Joe always has the option on every play. So, pretty much using your words - "Joe is [always] calling the shots". It's not like we're running one-man routes with only one option. Joe has option within every play and can audbile to another play as well. There's no difference whether it's huddle or no huddle, uptempo or no tempo.

    But, either way, Joe is picking from a limited menu of what the play and formation call is that comes from Cam on any given play. There just aren't that many options within each play call, so I just don't see how there's any difference there. Especially, when the same number of limited option exist no matter when or what the circumstance is - or whether is huddle, no huddle, shotgun or I-formation.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  14. #149

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    The problem is Joe always has the option on every play. It's not like we're running one-man routes with only one option. Joe has option within every play and can audbile to another play as well. There's no difference whether it's huddle or no huddle, uptempo or no tempo.

    But, either way, Joe is picking from a limited menu of what the play and formation call is that comes from Cam on any given play. There just aren't that many options within each play call, so I just don't see how there's any difference there. Especially, when the same number of limited option exist no matter when or what the circumstance is - or whether is huddle, no huddle, shotgun or I-formation.
    I dont agree that joe has the option on every play. I think during home games he does, which is why we are able to move the ball efficiently without using the no-huddle so much - even though we do and it was a big reason why we looked so dominant against the Bengals opener.

    That audible joe made on 4th and 2(which I still think it was just him flipping the play, not changing from a QB sneak) or whatever was one of the only audibles youll see Joe make on the road. It seems to me like joe is allowed to audible at home much, much more than he is on the road. And I think that is an issue. They dont trust Joe, even though he has delivered, usually every time whenever we need a score at the end of the game.

    Ryan, Romo, Peyton, Brady, Eli - just to name a few - youll see all of them audible no matter where the game is.

    Also, when you say its not like we are running 1 man routes with 1 option - You would be surprised.... go back a few pages and listen to the Greg Cosell podcast with his take on our offense. Hes so spot on and he doesnt even watch the ravens play every weekend. Maybe he does, I know hes apart of NFL Films, regardless its indisputable how boring our available offensive plays are.
    Last edited by landspeed; 11-29-2012 at 01:29 AM.




  15. #150

    Re: This is INSANITY

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    I dont agree that joe has the option on every play. I think during home games he does, which is why we are able to move the ball efficiently without using the no-huddle so much - even though we do and it was a big reason why we looked so dominant against the Bengals opener.

    That audible joe made on 4th and 2 or whatever was one of the only audibles youll see Joe make on the road. It seems to me like joe is allowed to audible at home much, much more than he is on the road. And I think that is an issue. They dont trust Joe, even though he has delivered, usually every time, when we need a score at the end of the game.

    Ryan, Romo, Peyton, Brady, Eli - just to name a few - youll see all of them audible no matter where the game is.
    I don't know - maybe, maybe not. And, to be clear, part of the "options" that I was referring to that he has is that within a play call, at least on a passing play, there are going to be several receivers that he has the option to throw to. I wasn't solely referring to audibles.

    Basically, Cam calls in the play and an audible - usually, one a run and one a pass - and the formation. Flacco, can then audible to the other based on the D's set. He can also decide which receiver he is going to throw to (if it's a pass play). So, to my way of thinking, it's Cam calling the play, and Flacco doing what a QB is supposed to do within a play call.

    We obviously disagree, but I think that's available to Joe most of the time, except perhaps in short yardage or goal line or situations which are obviously pass-only scenarios.

    Anyway, enough of this, we're probably not as far off in our thinking as we originally thought we were.

    Peace.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

    Follow me on Twitter @ravenssalarycap




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