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  1. #16
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL



    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    I know that many people on this board are big supporters of Norv Turner as an OC, and want him to come to Baltimore when he gets fired as the HC of the Chargers, but why? What have the Chargers done that sticks out to you in recent years? Philip Rivers was once a top 5 QB, and is now rumored to be traded in 2013, and has turned the ball over at will this year.
    It has nothing to do with his stint as HC and everything to do with his time as OC.

    Some coaches are better coordinators than they are as head coaches. Norv's offenses when he was OC were either at or close to the top of almost ever measurable out there.

    Dick LeBeau is the perfect example of this phenomenon. He's arguable the best DC in the last 50 years and quite possibly the best DC in the history of the NFL. But his two years as the Bungals HC? Yuck! Even his defenses on those teams sucked.

    When focused on their craft, coaches like Norv and LeBeau are masters.

    And I dont know where some have this notion that the AC offense is short passing. It's the opposite. The AC offense, when run correctly, forces the defense to defend the whole field as opposed to situational defense. At any moment, there could be a pass deep, over the middle or short. The deep receiver (or two, ideally) is the hallmark of the AC offense.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  2. #17
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    hate the croyell, I don't want Norv turner here or Cam here, the shit needs to go, I believe Flacco would be very successful in west coast spread gun offense, much like the falcons, greenbay, lions and to some extent denver. Kyle Orton looked good for bout 8 games a couple seasons ago running that offense and was in some MVP talks for bout 6 weeks. Time to lay that old shit to rest and get with the modern day NFL.




  3. #18

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    I still beg to differ on the AC. CAM runs a combination of that such as the long bomb to Torrey and the West Coast offense such as the short pass to Rice cutting across the middle which he turned into a 29 yd gain. The D had to respect Torrey so much, it left the middle open
    for Joe to throw underneath.
    Eh...it was a dumpoff (Rice wasn't cutting anywhere...he was just drifting slowly out of the backfield and it was open because The Chargers were playing 15 yards off and it wasn't just Torrey that went deep...all 4 of our guys went deep (Jacoby, Q and Pitta)...it was basically the same play we run 3-4 times a game...the dreaded "all go" (BTW, it's a play that Bill Walsh ran as well). The result of that play really had nothing to do with design, it had all to do with the way the Chargers sucked at tackling and Rice's effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by LC_Ravens_87 View Post
    You can run any offense you want, but if the respective O-lines give up 5 and 6 sacks, the unit will struggle. Add to that a a few false starts and the efficiency goes down even further. I've just come to the belief that the 5 big mollies up front are the biggest determinant in a successful offense. If you can't block a defense consistently, you can't do anything on offense.

    San Diego and Norv Turner have just had their O-line decay in the last few years, starting 3 backups Sunday. Similarly, the Ravens have been in big transition up front the last 2 years, but really haven't been elite up front since 2009.

    It's not all the scheme, and it's not all the talent of the players you have, but I'd have to say it's mostly about the players.
    I like the WCO because it stresses quick decisions and throws...which minimize the OL play. Short, 3 step drops, taking the short passes and having an accurate QB who can get the ball to guys in position to get YAC.

    These LONG, 7 step play action passes take so freaking long to develop...most teams don't run that long play action action for that very reason...it gives defensive players too much time to get to the QB. Those plays were staples of teams like the Raiders and Chargers in the 70-s and early 80's...there is a reason why nobody does that anymore.

    I remember a quote from Rex this offseason saying that it's so hard to get to QB's these days unless you have a completely free rusher because QB's are getting rid of the ball so quick now days. We need to get with the program and get the ball out of Joe's hands quick.

    Unfortunately, Cam (and Harbaugh has bought into this) are ALL about "big chunk" plays, instead of ball possession and consistent positive yards.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.




  4. #19
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Read the references to GB, and have to comment that with the NFL parity, it seems that you can build an O or build a D.
    GB's D wasn't good last year, so they drafted D DE(Perry), DT(Worthy), CB(Hayward), DT(Daniels), S(McMillian), LB(Manning), and then in round 7 Andrew Datka OT Florida State.

    And now we are seeing Rogers getting hammered.

    Yep we need a legit LT (Oher to RT), but that ain't going to happen drafting 32nd
    We also need a MLB or a Boulware.

    We have the skill pieces (who doesn't need a Megatron?) and I really have no major complaints about the playbook.
    Have we run a true draw anytime recently?

    I'm glad we are not AC, I like components of it but I also love time of possession to rest the D and keep their pressure sharp.

    Agree also that the component of WCO that I see (way too often) is the sideline out, which seems like something a D is willing to be looser defending in order to tighten something else. We need to flip the frequency of the crossers with the frequency of the sideline outs.

    My complaints with Cam is not that he isn't good.
    It is that he is slow to adapt to a D..... it seems like a mack truck going downhill with poor brakes.... you know what is going on, just gonna take a good while to do something about it.

    The AC part of our hybrid O requires super miracle efforts against Tampa 2
    The WCO requires effective crossers... and I think I see screens called when crossings are needed, and execution blamed.

    Bottom line is we need to figure how to maximize the pieces we have, and we have good pieces, and not bring in someone who is going to eat draft choices with personell changes.... we have more than enough attrition replacement to deal with on both sides of the ball.

    And a final non-connected thought is that Bynes gets cut for Ray.
    To understand paranoid people better, follow them around.




  5. #20

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?




  6. #21

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Good point on the o-line decay. TV showed the Packer's line getting
    Aaron Rogers killed. Same thing is happening to them. Our line
    looked a lot better than GBs but it's happening all over with the o-lines.
    Which is why I'm a great proponent (as is leachisabeast) for fixing the OL in 2013.
    5 needs more time for his progressions, and as tough as he is, still the hits are piling up (30+ sacks/yr), PLUS we also need to f-in stop getting stuffed on short yardage situations.
    Fix the OL and this offense goes ape-isht home, away, on the surface of the moon, wherever...and I think that even with Cammie's non-rhythmic play calling, this offense can significantly increase its productivity. You know...FOUR full quarters of effectiveness, instead of one or two.

    I don't want to get wrapped up in system nomenclature. I'd rather look at skills and production. 82 running an out 2/3s on the time is fail. 88 running 2-3 yard outs is a waste of his beautiful hands and positional speed. From what I see live and on tape, Cammie doesn't consistently leverage or exploit match-ups. I also see a lot of guys motoring down just as they break open...which tells me that both our guys AND the DBs anticipate that Joe won't/can't progress across/down the field on any given pass play. That's a huge problem.

    Can Cammie learn new tricks? I have no reason to believe that he can. But like it's been said many times before, the only likely scenario of him going away is us falling short of the SB with only 2-3 FGs on the board. So I'm back to aggressively (i.e., pursuing whatever needs the FO determines) fixing the OL.




  7. #22

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?
    Caldwell didn't run anything. He's never been a coordinator. If memory serves me correctly he went from a position coach to HC while at Indy and we know he didn't run the offense there, it was all Peyton.




  8. #23

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    I really do believe any system and play calling designed to make Joe get rid of the ball within 3-5 seconds suits his strengths. Joe needs a certain tempo to thrive in. These 7 step drop backs don't work. Our OL can't hold the point of attack for that long.

    He needs to be given the opportunity to throw the ball in the middle of the field. Too many out routes in our offensive scheme. Teams are starting to bracket their coverage on these patterns by bringing the safetly underneath and the DB over the top.




  9. #24
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    1. it was one game
    2. Harb said he wanted it to be a low scoring grind-out AFCN type game. That part was by design
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  10. #25
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?
    Run and gun is basically pass 100 % of the time out of the shotgun, no body uses that scheme in the NFL.

    There is the spread option that we see from our offense when playing at home, or as we know it "the sugar huddle", you can pound the ball and go pass happy with that system. The issues with it are, you can't realistically run that offense for the full length of a game, and in hostile and loud environments. But if you can find a way around that like the Patriots do, it can one of the hardest things for any defense to defend against, it keeps everyone on the field, and wares down a defense. It keeps them guessing "run or pass", and especially when we have Ray Rice in the back field.

    There are other hybrid offensive systems that you can run like the 49ers run a power run scheme WCO for example. Detroit run a hybrid between the WCO and the AC, but predominantly the AC offense.

    Of course there are the gimmick college offenses that the likes of Tebow can run, but they don't belong in the NFL.




  11. #26
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    And there's another wrinkle to this.

    Cam doesn't run a true AC offense. So to judge the AC offense on what he's been doing (or not doing) is not fair to the system.

    He's never had the 2nd WR deep threat, thus has been relying too much on Smith to pick up the slack. The problem there is predictability, something we've all noticed from this offense.

    All the more reason I'd want Norv as our OC. He's knows the system FAR better than Cam will ever know it and it's a great response to the zone blitz we see twice a year from the Steelers.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #27
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Joe View Post
    Besides AC and West Coast, what other systems are there? Is Run and Shoot a system or part of the above mentioned? What does Caldwell run?
    LOL Ground and pound

    You also have Mike Martz who would get his QB sacked often looking for downfield passes

    Also have to consider what formations are used.... the same play (route trees) can be run by different teams, but with different personell packages can look like a totally different play (2 TE vs no TE, but if you look at the downfield development receivers are moving in the same ways.

    I'd be interested to hear on Caldwell, I don't really know... didn't Manning do most of the decisions?
    To understand paranoid people better, follow them around.




  13. #28

    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    1. it was one game
    2. Harb said he wanted it to be a low scoring grind-out AFCN type game. That part was by design
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing the entire year. Inefficient, conservative, predictable and frequent 3 and outs. We can't continue to endure longs droughts like that on the road. Did you not notice on several occassions the disparity in offensive stats(home vs road) CBS kept flashing. If Harbs said that during his presser, I'm calling BS on that.




  14. #29
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing since 2008
    Fixed that for you.




  15. #30
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    Re: Sunday confirms to me that the AC offense is simply not a good fit for today's NFL

    Quote Originally Posted by pslholder96 View Post
    That road performance, specifically the first 3 quarters is what this offense has been doing the entire year. Inefficient, conservative, predictable and frequent 3 and outs. We can't continue to endure longs droughts like that on the road. Did you not notice on several occassions the disparity in offensive stats(home vs road) CBS kept flashing. If Harbs said that during his presser, I'm calling BS on that.
    I also saw Flacco missing some throws badly, dropped passes and once when SD stacked the box and he still ran the draw for no gain; and once when he changed the play to run and it was completely stuffed. Plenty of finger pointing to go around

    Harbs said the team has the ability to win in multiple ways and against SD they wanted a grind out low scoring game. That's what they got.
    The offense is still top 10 in scoring
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