Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
How many Pro Bowls has Flacco made? And yes I know that the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest but so is the Hall of Fame. One step at a time for Flacco.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GOTA
How many Pro Bowls has Flacco made? And yes I know that the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest but so is the Hall of Fame. One step at a time for Flacco.
What if they do away with Pro Bowls (which I hope they do)?
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jonboy79
Troy Aikman is a HOFer based more on wins and team success then individual numbers.
Lets take a ganer at them.
Almost 33k yards at 61.5 completion pct.
1.17:1 TD:INT ration with 165 Total TD's
81.6 career Qb rating
3 SB's, 6 PB's and 3 All-Pro's.
in 12 years
exactly 1 season with over 20 TD's, ZERO seasons above 3500 yards.
career average game... 200 yards, 1 TD, .85 picks...
carre QB rating 86.3
hopefully about to get his first SB, 0 probowls, much less all-pro seasons
in 5 years
4 straight seasons with over 20 TD's, 3 straight over 3500 yards
career average game...220 yards, 1.28 TD's .7 picks
SO, as can be seen, he msut keep up his team success, perhaps even increase it, while his personal stats are far better, yet his personal ACCOLADES trail dramatically, much relating to the popularity of AMerica's team.
Currently, Flacco has MORE than 17000 yards at 60.5 pct
1.82:1 TD:INT ratio with 102 total TD passes
3 SB's, 6 PB's and 3 All-Pro's.
So for 3 years he was considered by somebody one of the best QB's in the league and 6 for 6 years somebody thought he was one of the 2 or 3 best QB's in his division. Joe needs to do that, and to do that he needs to improve his stats a lot.
THe QB that I think Joe might draw comparisons to is Phil Simms. 2 Superbowl rings, tough in the playoffs, generally thought of as a really good QB, but maybe just short of HOF status. I think Simms may one day get there because of the team he played for, but he is not in yet.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NCRAVEN
What if they do away with Pro Bowls (which I hope they do)?
Then they will ask how many MVP's, Offensive Player of the Year, or All Pro Teams did he make.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GOTA
How many Pro Bowls has Flacco made? And yes I know that the Pro Bowl is a popularity contest but so is the Hall of Fame. One step at a time for Flacco.
And on that note, it's an absolute crock that Dalton and Schaub got picked for Pro Bowls and Flacco hasn't which to me pretty much invalidates the pro bowl as a measure of anything except jack and shit.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
somedumbguy
3 SB's, 6 PB's and 3 All-Pro's.
So for 3 years he was considered by somebody one of the best QB's in the league and 6 for 6 years somebody thought he was one of the 2 or 3 best QB's in his division. Joe needs to do that, and to do that he needs to improve his stats a lot.
THe QB that I think Joe might draw comparisons to is Phil Simms. 2 Superbowl rings, tough in the playoffs, generally thought of as a really good QB, but maybe just short of HOF status. I think Simms may one day get there because of the team he played for, but he is not in yet.
I wasn't putting that all up there to annoint him already, simply show a point of consideration. IF you get 3 SB's, stats are less important. ANd if anything,that set of stats shows just how popularity biased Pro-bowls and even ALl-PRo's are.
IF we win this year, Joe will start going to Pro-Bowl's starting next year. Although hopefully, he wikll be turning down the invitations due to the SB's he will be starting in for years to come.
Andy Freaking Dalton is starting in this year's pro-bowl. Even Andy Dalton's mom knows Flacco is a better player then him. IF he were not in the SB, tis would have certainly been Flacco's first Pro Bowl season.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
If Aikman and Bradshaw get into Canton on the strength of the teams they played on...why shouldn't Flacco? Flacco has actually had to win some games with his arm for the Ravens to have achieved their current status, unlike the two QBs mentioned before.
Of course, the HOF is not always a reflection of sheer talent in comparison with your peers. If it was about sheer talent, Ken Anderson would have the HOF spot of a vastly-inferior Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw had only one season with a QB rating over 85 and never cracked the 90 mark. Now before you go off and say that was because of his era, let me remind you that is comtemporary Ken Anderson had five seasons with a rating over 85 including FOUR seasons of 95.7, 93.9, 98.4, and 95.3 (all of which led the NFL). Anderson's omission from Canton is an absolute joke.
Lastly, to those who think Flacco is not a HOF QB, I would encourage you to go put Flacco's production/wins/efficiency up against any HOF quarterback. He's going to compare favorably to most.
Terry Bradshaw in his first five years was TERRIBLE. He had 48 TDs against 81 INTs. In fact, in his rookie year, Bradshaw threw 6 TDs and 24 INTs for a QB rating of 30.4 . He was also sacked 25 times in 8 starts. He had a 38.1% completion percentage and threw 24 INTs in 218 attempts. He threw 83 completions to his own teammates and 24 to the opposition. His QB rating was 8.6 points lower than Ryan Leaf's rookie year, which is widely viewed as the worst season in NFL history. If Blaine Gabbert lost his job after his rookie year with a far less disastrous performance , what do you think would have happened to Bradshaw if he played in today's NFL?
Troy Aikman threw 69TDs-66 INTs in his first five years. This included 20TDs/36INTs over his first two seasons. Once the Cowboys started to win, suddenly people forgot about how bad he was early in his career. Aikman never had stats remotely close to HOF enshrinement, despite playing with Hall of Famers right and left on the offensive side of the ball. He never had a 3500 yard season. He only threw over 20 TDs once in his career. His best season in terms of passing yards was the equivolent of Flacco's 5th best season (in 5 years). Flacco is destroying him in career TD/INT ratio (1.82 to 1.17). Lastly, his regular season winning % (.570) isn't anywhere near Flacco's 67.5%. Yet, he won 3 Super Bowls, so his very pedestrian career is suddenly regarded a lot more highly. If Flacco's unparalleled success is credited as being a "game manager", then what was Troy Aikman? Considering that the one thing that game managing QBs are supposed to do well (protect the ball and let your teammates win for you) is an area where Flacco severely trumps Aikman, I think it's hard to argue that he doesn't have the start of HOF credentials.
A lot of QBs currently in Canton had far more struggles and far less success in their first five NFL seasons than Flacco.
Also, Jim Plunkett is a poor comparison. Plunkett had basically played his way out of a starting job in the NFL after years of so-so play in New England. His winning two Super Bowls were in seasons late in his career when he was a backup thrust into a starting/babysitting role on some stacked Raider teams. If Flacco wins two Super Bowls, it will be nothing comparable to the route that Plunkett took to get there.
There are so many variables in determining whether a QB is HOF worthy. Typically, without a win, you have to have the eye-popping stats like Marino or Fouts. The difficultly level gets progressively easier with one win and with multiple appearances. If the Ravens lose this game in 11 days and Flacco never returns to a Super Bowl, he will have to accumulate some insane stats to get into Canton. With one win, the picture changes quite a bit. At that point, he merely needs to put together another 6-8 years closely similar to his 2010 and 2012 seasons and he will be a virtual lock.
I think some people here are undervaluing how much his reputation has changed this postseason. I've heard multiple people refer to him as "one of the most clutch QBs of all-time" or something closely similar to that. That type of reputation, when coupled with a lot of postseason wins, a Super Bowl win, and some good overall stats, is a sure recipe for HOF admission.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
I have to think that if Flacco continues on his trajectory - which I think will continue upward given what we've been seeing this year, that you won't have to worry about pro-bowls or awards. I strongly suspect going forward he's going to have a few 30+ TD, 4000+ yard seasons under his belt. Pro-bowls don't really mean anything much anymore, and I think the writers know it, but - Flacco is probably going to find himself in more than a few of them from here on out due to the perception of him changing so radically this postseason. If he gets MVP in this year's SuperBowl, he's probably a lock for a pro bowl next year unless he falls flat on his face.
What he's done in his first five years is pretty remarkable - if he continues to keep making the playoffs and winning playoff games, he'll be a shoe-in.
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alienrace
I have to think that if Flacco continues on his trajectory - which I think will continue upward given what we've been seeing this year, that you won't have to worry about pro-bowls or awards. I strongly suspect going forward he's going to have a few 30+ TD, 4000+ yard seasons under his belt. Pro-bowls don't really mean anything much anymore, and I think the writers know it, but - Flacco is probably going to find himself in more than a few of them from here on out due to the perception of him changing so radically this postseason. If he gets MVP in this year's SuperBowl, he's probably a lock for a pro bowl next year unless he falls flat on his face.
What he's done in his first five years is pretty remarkable - if he continues to keep making the playoffs and winning playoff games, he'll be a shoe-in.
+1
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
I don't really care if Flacco makes the HOF or not. He's a much better QB than Dilfer without doubt, but my only sense is that he (Joe) wins a Super Bowl for us Ravens fans. I do not want him to be like Dan Marino, a HOF QB without a championship ring. If Joe can play (speculating here) 15 years, and make it to two Super Bowls (winning both), then I'd be a happy Ravens camper. Wouldn't you? ... Bc
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Regular season Stockmarket Joe is keeping Joe from Probowls......and the HOF.
This team won't have their heart-n-soul leader of the last 17yrs next year. Get the team back to the playoffs and win without him. That will help a great deal....
PS - AND PLAY ON THE ROAD IN THE REGULAR SEASON LIKE YOU PLAY IN THE PLAYOFFS ON THE ROAD!
Re: Premature Discussion of Flacco's Mounting Hall of Fame Credentials
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LukeDaniel
If Aikman and Bradshaw get into Canton on the strength of the teams they played on...why shouldn't Flacco? Flacco has actually had to win some games with his arm for the Ravens to have achieved their current status, unlike the two QBs mentioned before.
Of course, the HOF is not always a reflection of sheer talent in comparison with your peers. If it was about sheer talent, Ken Anderson would have the HOF spot of a vastly-inferior Terry Bradshaw. Bradshaw had only one season with a QB rating over 85 and never cracked the 90 mark. Now before you go off and say that was because of his era, let me remind you that is comtemporary Ken Anderson had five seasons with a rating over 85 including FOUR seasons of 95.7, 93.9, 98.4, and 95.3 (all of which led the NFL). Anderson's omission from Canton is an absolute joke.
Lastly, to those who think Flacco is not a HOF QB, I would encourage you to go put Flacco's production/wins/efficiency up against any HOF quarterback. He's going to compare favorably to most.
Terry Bradshaw in his first five years was TERRIBLE. He had 48 TDs against 81 INTs. In fact, in his rookie year, Bradshaw threw 6 TDs and 24 INTs for a QB rating of 30.4 . He was also sacked 25 times in 8 starts. He had a 38.1% completion percentage and threw 24 INTs in 218 attempts. He threw 83 completions to his own teammates and 24 to the opposition. His QB rating was 8.6 points lower than Ryan Leaf's rookie year, which is widely viewed as the worst season in NFL history. If Blaine Gabbert lost his job after his rookie year with a far less disastrous performance , what do you think would have happened to Bradshaw if he played in today's NFL?
Troy Aikman threw 69TDs-66 INTs in his first five years. This included 20TDs/36INTs over his first two seasons. Once the Cowboys started to win, suddenly people forgot about how bad he was early in his career. Aikman never had stats remotely close to HOF enshrinement, despite playing with Hall of Famers right and left on the offensive side of the ball. He never had a 3500 yard season. He only threw over 20 TDs once in his career. His best season in terms of passing yards was the equivolent of Flacco's 5th best season (in 5 years). Flacco is destroying him in career TD/INT ratio (1.82 to 1.17). Lastly, his regular season winning % (.570) isn't anywhere near Flacco's 67.5%. Yet, he won 3 Super Bowls, so his very pedestrian career is suddenly regarded a lot more highly. If Flacco's unparalleled success is credited as being a "game manager", then what was Troy Aikman? Considering that the one thing that game managing QBs are supposed to do well (protect the ball and let your teammates win for you) is an area where Flacco severely trumps Aikman, I think it's hard to argue that he doesn't have the start of HOF credentials.
A lot of QBs currently in Canton had far more struggles and far less success in their first five NFL seasons than Flacco.
Also, Jim Plunkett is a poor comparison. Plunkett had basically played his way out of a starting job in the NFL after years of so-so play in New England. His winning two Super Bowls were in seasons late in his career when he was a backup thrust into a starting/babysitting role on some stacked Raider teams. If Flacco wins two Super Bowls, it will be nothing comparable to the route that Plunkett took to get there.
There are so many variables in determining whether a QB is HOF worthy. Typically, without a win, you have to have the eye-popping stats like Marino or Fouts. The difficultly level gets progressively easier with one win and with multiple appearances. If the Ravens lose this game in 11 days and Flacco never returns to a Super Bowl, he will have to accumulate some insane stats to get into Canton. With one win, the picture changes quite a bit. At that point, he merely needs to put together another 6-8 years closely similar to his 2010 and 2012 seasons and he will be a virtual lock.
I think some people here are undervaluing how much his reputation has changed this postseason. I've heard multiple people refer to him as "one of the most clutch QBs of all-time" or something closely similar to that. That type of reputation, when coupled with a lot of postseason wins, a Super Bowl win, and some good overall stats, is a sure recipe for HOF admission.
Bradshaw and Aikman won lots of Super Bowls while playing on media darling teams (Steelers and Cowboys). Don't discount how much that improves their standing in the eyes of the media. Certainly that inflated Bradshaw's candidacy. Flacco will never have that luxury.
They also played in a much different era of football. Fair or not, Flacco and his stats are going to be compared with his current peers (Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Brady, all have rings) and when compared that, his numbers simply don't match up AS OF NOW. We all hope that changes. He doesn't need to match the numbers exactly. He'll probably never be a 5,000 yard passer. But he has to close the gap some. Like GOTA said, let him make a Pro Bowl before we worry about the HOF.
