Jaws' QB Rankings on ESPN

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You're gonna need to show those stats then.

Joe Flacco was sacked 35 times, and is listed as having 32 rushing attempts. Even if he might have scored or ran out of bounds on half those rushes, that's 51-67 times he would have been taken to the turf by a defender.

Russell Wilson was sacked 33 times and had 94 rushing attempts. Again, giving him maybe 1/2 those rushes where he might not have been tackled, that's still 80-127 times he WAS tackled.

There's just no way I can see where a QB who's getting planted in the turf nearly twice as often (usually by 250lb LBs or 300+lb linemen) isn't going to be more injury-prone.

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Not to mention that QBs like Flacco/Big Ben can take more hits in general due to their large bodies. Running QBs are generally smaller

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Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus

I'm not buying the read-option as a "gimmick." There's a legitimate reason it works. On a more traditional NFL running play it's essentially 10 v 11 once the QB hands the ball off. In the read-option, it's essentially 10 v 10 once the decision is made to hand off or not hand off. That's not a gimmick. It's simple math.

I think a fairer criticism of the read option is that it exposes your most valuable player to a greater number of hits.

NFL defenses will certainly get better at defending the option, but it presents a legitimate tactical advantage for offenses. Getting better at defending it won't completely negate that.

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While it creates a bit of tactical advantage it also subjects your QB to being hit more than a pocket passer. Last year RGIII had more highlight hits against him than any other player. There is reason why RBs have a short shelf life. The league is going out of its way to protect QBs in the pocket. The zone read puts the QB at risk.

There is too small of a sample set to show the danger to the QB as last year was only the 2nd year the offense was run. That being said history has not been kind to running QBs. The other challenge with running the zone read is the QBs mentality. They view themselves as a weapon running the ball and therefore put themselves at risk to gain yards even when scrambling on passing plays. Pocket QBs for the most part will slide when they scramble. RGIII, Cam Newton and Kaepernick try to get every yard possible. The zone read works well in college because you do not have elite players with size and speed at every position like you do in the NFL. Defenses preparing for it will marginalize it's success to the point where it is no longer worth teams risking their most important player.

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Originally Posted by conviction

Not to mention that QBs like Flacco/Big Ben can take more hits in general due to their large bodies. Running QBs are generally smaller

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Ben gets hurt every year, not sure he's a good example of being able to take hits. Of course a 'running' QB is going to take more hits. I'm saying there is no reason to think a team can't run the pistol or read/option without having their QB run all the time. It's a threat and if it's open they can take off (and slide) but it shouldn't be the primary play. KC is planning to run the pistol with Alex Smith this year.
I think you'll see RGIII take a lot less hits this year but time will tell.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

You're gonna need to show those stats then.

Joe Flacco was sacked 35 times, and is listed as having 32 rushing attempts. Even if he might have scored or ran out of bounds on half those rushes, that's 51-67 times he would have been taken to the turf by a defender.

Russell Wilson was sacked 33 times and had 94 rushing attempts. Again, giving him maybe 1/2 those rushes where he might not have been tackled, that's still 80-127 times he WAS tackled.

There's just no way I can see where a QB who's getting planted in the turf nearly twice as often (usually by 250lb LBs or 300+lb linemen) isn't going to be more injury-prone.

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The flaw in this logic is that all hits are not created equal. If they were, then Ray Rice with his 257 rushes and 61 receptions would be WAY more likely to get injured. But when you are running and able to see the incoming blow, and either avoid it, or defray it with a stiffarm, or deliver some punishment of your own, it's much different than when you are standing in the pocket, trying to stay upright, while a 300lb man has you around the waist and another is diving at your chest.

Add the QB's slide-rule protection and tendency to bootleg out of bounds, and don't believe that QB's rushing in the context of the read-option are much more vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by Kyle Cactus

I'm not buying the read-option as a "gimmick." There's a legitimate reason it works. On a more traditional NFL running play it's essentially 10 v 11 once the QB hands the ball off. In the read-option, it's essentially 10 v 10 once the decision is made to hand off or not hand off. That's not a gimmick. It's simple math.

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That same simple math was the exact point of the Wildcat. And that proved to be a gimmick, because at the end of the day, your QB has to be able to throw the ball well. If Wilson or RGIII has long-term success in the League, it will be because of their arms, not their legs. Their legs will prove to be a nice-to-have bonus like Steve Young's were.

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Originally Posted by HotInHere

That same simple math was the exact point of the Wildcat. And that proved to be a gimmick, because at the end of the day, your QB has to be able to throw the ball well. If Wilson or RGIII has long-term success in the League, it will be because of their arms, not their legs. Their legs will prove to be a nice-to-have bonus like Steve Young's were.

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That's why I think (currently) that Wilson could have the longer career. RGIII has already had two major surgeries on the same knee. He is a hell of a passer, but he (like Vick) relies on his ability to run far too much. I mean, he took some BIG shots last year.

Yes, Wilson can scramble and run, but he didn't take anywhere near as many hits as RGIII did.

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Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Yes, Wilson can scramble and run, but he didn't take anywhere near as many hits as RGIII did.

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I'm old enough to remember the pounding Doug Williams took and his subsequent success.

But you are right, RG3 has to play smarter to stay effective longer. Injuries can be overcome (Jim Plunkett) but we have to see more reliance of pass and running as a last resort.

When at Oregon, Chip Kelly would always say that he wanted a QB who could throw; running was just an added extra and not required. Among other things Kelly's Oregon teams would have the QB keep the ball in the read option sparingly-just enough to make the defense think. And his Oregon teams had their greatest two years with a pretty immobile QB (Darron Thomas) who beat out a faster, more mobile QB for the job. And now in the pros Nick Foles has a real chance to beat out Mike Vick, who is more scattershot as a thrower.

The read option isn't a gimmick; using it every play however is a gimmick. Used right, a QB like Kaepernick or Wilson or Luck is that much better without risking his career. But if a QB insists on running too much, read-option or not, he's gonna get hurt and have a shortened career. Vick? RGB3?

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Originally Posted by ursula

When at Oregon, Chip Kelly would always say that he wanted a QB who could throw; running was just an added extra and not required. Among other things Kelly's Oregon teams would have the QB keep the ball in the read option sparingly-just enough to make the defense think. And his Oregon teams had their greatest two years with a pretty immobile QB (Darron Thomas) who beat out a faster, more mobile QB for the job. And now in the pros Nick Foles has a real chance to beat out Mike Vick, who is more scattershot as a thrower.

The read option isn't a gimmick; using it every play however is a gimmick. Used right, a QB like Kaepernick or Wilson or Luck is that much better without risking his career. But if a QB insists on running too much, read-option or not, he's gonna get hurt and have a shortened career. Vick? RGB3?

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I agree with you that the trick to successfully running the read-option is to use it just enough to make the defense hesitate.

The Redskins used it a lot last year though.

In the pro game a quarterback can't take a lot of hits and have longevity. Wilson, Kaepernick and RG3 are all talented, but they'll need to avoid punishment to have a long career. This should be an interesting year to see how teams defend the read option and if the young quarterbacks can stay healthy. From what I have seen of them, RG3 is the most reckless runner.

Last year whenever Wilson took off, he'd run out of bounds or get down as soon as he was about to get hit.

Pretty sure Kaep did similar things.

RGIII would try to juke and fight for extra yards...

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Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Last year whenever Wilson took off, he'd run out of bounds or get down as soon as he was about to get hit.

Pretty sure Kaep did similar things.

RGIII would try to juke and fight for extra yards...

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I agree. Hell the injuryRGIII had against the Ravens was when he scrambled on a pass play, it wasn't a run by design.

Weve seen Brady, Manning and other QBs miss significant amounts of a season and they never run. I don't think the zone/read creates much more of an injury risk, especially when the play is to hand off inside depending on the look from the D. It's going to be a great year to see how the pistol and zone/read continue to evolve in the league