Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wickedsolo
JO was drafted 4th overall.
Big BIG difference between the 4th overall pick and the mid 20's.
That's not what I mean. You have expectations of a player but not necessarily dependant on where they were drafted. For example warmack has been so dominate in college I'd expect a career similar to someone like faneca for example and yet who could go in the twenties. Whereas Luke j, I only expect him to have a career similar to Brandon Albert. A good but not great left tackle like a Joe Thomas, and he will probably go top 5.
I base my expectations on play not draft position, and for oher while I wasn't expecting a great left tackle, if they front office was, regardless of where he was drafted, you'd say he's a bust.
Me I seen a good right tackle, a very good one, and he's pretty much delivered on that expectation.
I'm just saying one person may say someone is a bust based on their expectations whereas others would not.
If someone thought Upshaw was going to be a suggs esque pass rusher theyll be disappointed. Whereas I was expecting and still am, very little in the pass rush department from him based on what I saw. So if all we get is a great run stopping end, I'm satisfied, whereas someone else may not be, bcause they expected more.
Nothing to do with draft position. Purely gameplay
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arnie_uk
That's not what I mean. You have expectations of a player but not necessarily dependant on where they were drafted. For example warmack has been so dominate in college I'd expect a career similar to someone like faneca for example and yet who could go in the twenties. Whereas Luke j, I only expect him to have a career similar to Brandon Albert. A good but not great left tackle like a Joe Thomas, and he will probably go top 5.
I base my expectations on play not draft position, and for oher while I wasn't expecting a great left tackle, if they front office was, regardless of where he was drafted, you'd say he's a bust.
Me I seen a good right tackle, a very good one, and he's pretty much delivered on that expectation.
I'm just saying one person may say someone is a bust based on their expectations whereas others would not.
If someone thought Upshaw was going to be a suggs esque pass rusher theyll be disappointed. Whereas I was expecting and still am, very little in the pass rush department from him based on what I saw. So if all we get is a great run stopping end, I'm satisfied, whereas someone else may not be, bcause they expected more.
Nothing to do with draft position. Purely gameplay
So since you brought up JO, were you expecting the next JO for a gu y picked at 23 and was the 4th OT taken?
Do you really think the FO was? Remember we had Gaither established at the time at LT.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raveninwoodlawn
So since you brought up JO, were you expecting the next JO for a gu y picked at 23 and was the 4th OT taken?
Do you really think the FO was? Remember we had Gaither established at the time at LT.
I was just using that as an example to illustrate a point. I said in that post all I was expecting was a very good right tackle, and he's delivered on that pretty much. I think it was the fourth paragraph from the end.
To better explain, if whoever drafts Luke in the top five thinks they are going to get a joe Thomas shutdown, one of the best left tackles in the league, they might be disappointed. But if there expectations is more Brandon Albert level, very good, makes a couple mistakes here and there, but won't need to much help, then I think that's exactly what they will get.
So if you expected joe Thomas and got Albert, you could class him as a kind of bust.
These are all examples I'm using here. I don't think oher is a bust, but I'm sure a lot do because they probably expected a great left tackle coming in, whereas I didn't, and he has pretty much delivered what I expected.
This was all in reply to Someone saying oher is clearly not a bust after someone else said he was. The one that said hes a bust obviously thought we are getting a jake long, joe Thomas player here, whereas the one that said he wasn't a bust obviously thought from watching him at college etc this is exactly what we would get.
That's how expectations based on performance can lead to one person saying he's a bust the other saying he's not.
That's all I was saying, I didn't think it would turn into an essay lol
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
And I'm not sure what the front office was thinking. Me personally I wouldn't have taken a right tackle that high, which leads me to believe they maybe thought he could be a very good left tackle. I say this without wanting to getting into the Gaither oher argument.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Given our unstable LT situation what about Justin Pughs from Syracuse. Looks like he's declaring for the draft.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...r-mill/page/2/
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raveninwoodlawn
So since you brought up JO, were you expecting the next JO for a gu y picked at 23 and was the 4th OT taken?
Do you really think the FO was? Remember we had Gaither established at the time at LT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arnie_uk
And I'm not sure what the front office was thinking. Me personally I wouldn't have taken a right tackle that high, which leads me to believe they maybe thought he could be a very good left tackle. I say this without wanting to getting into the Gaither oher argument.
Again, not wanting to re-hash the Gaither argument, but I don't think they drafted Oher ONLY to play RT. I think at a MINIMUM, they drafted him to play LT as a fallback option for Gaither, who only had proven himself for 1 year in 2008, had been somewhat injury prone, and (depending on how much you believe the rumors) had angered the team with his work ethic/etc. issues. Thus, I'm not sure the team would have called Jared the "established" LT. (Of course, some believe that the team hated Gaither so much that they planned to start Oher at LT no matter what, but I don't think the evidence is there for that.)
I think the FO would have been happy to have the 2 OT spots locked down by either of them as long as Gaither straightened himself out, but they knew they needed somebody who wasn't a RT only and that's why they grabbed Oher so high. He could definitely play RT but they also saw him as a franchise LT. No matter what happened with Gaither the FO felt they had protected themselves for the best and worst case scenarios.
Hindsight being what it is, we now know they were pretty much screwed with BOTH guys, but the 2009 draft was not a good time to get a tackle. They've all been underwhelming, some have been catastrophic busts. Eugene Monroe has probably been the best tackle overall, but he's not a great deal better than Oher and he's made to look a lot worse by the QB mess in Jacksonville. After that Oher, and then Andre Smith but he's only really been good for one season at this point, pretty good last season, and garbage his first 2.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pslholder96
In the 3rd or 4th round? Absolutely.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wickedsolo
In the 3rd or 4th round? Absolutely.
As soon as you said "3rd round" the first thought that came to my head was...another Jah Reid LOL
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pslholder96
As soon as you said "3rd round" the first thought that came to my head was...another Jah Reid LOL
Maybe, but Jah was a career RT in college.
Pugh has nice ability as a LT. He's a bit on the smaller side, so he might need to bulk up a bit.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wickedsolo
Maybe, but Jah was a career RT in college.
Pugh has nice ability as a LT. He's a bit on the smaller side, so he might need to bulk up a bit.
I was waiting on his decision, i honestly thought he was going back to school. I really like Pugh and i think he'd be a really nice 3rd rd pick.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Carey
I was waiting on his decision, i honestly thought he was going back to school. I really like Pugh and i think he'd be a really nice 3rd rd pick.
I think he'll go higher than that if he works out and interviews well. I'd say the third round is probably his floor, realistically, and if he has a good pre-draft period he could easily make a case for the top 32.
With Jake Matthews probably going back to school, there's the top 3 guys in Joeckel, Lewan, and Fisher, and then it's really wide open for someone to jump up and take that 4th tackle spot. Lane Johnson? Oday Aboushi? Justin Pugh could easily grab it if everything checks out with him. That would put him solidly into the 2nd round.
He's a very good scheme fit for the Ravens zone-blocking system. Smart, athletic, very good in pass protection. The downsides with him are that he's pretty slim at like 6'6 290 and he never really faced a slew of good pass rushers in the Big East. The best guys he's really gone against have been Derek Wolfe, Trevardo Williams, and Jabaal Sheard... not exactly SEC type speed guys.
Re: New draft/FA/offseason thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bmorecareful
I think he'll go higher than that if he works out and interviews well. I'd say the third round is probably his floor, realistically, and if he has a good pre-draft period he could easily make a case for the top 32.
With Jake Matthews probably going back to school, there's the top 3 guys in Joeckel, Lewan, and Fisher, and then it's really wide open for someone to jump up and take that 4th tackle spot. Lane Johnson? Oday Aboushi? Justin Pugh could easily grab it if everything checks out with him. That would put him solidly into the 2nd round.
He's a very good scheme fit for the Ravens zone-blocking system. Smart, athletic, very good in pass protection. The downsides with him are that he's pretty slim at like 6'6 290 and he never really faced a slew of good pass rushers in the Big East. The best guys he's really gone against have been Derek Wolfe, Trevardo Williams, and Jabaal Sheard... not exactly SEC type speed guys.
Frankly, I don't know that Lewan did himself any favors. Granted, Jadeveon Clowney is probably better than most NFL team's starting rushers, but he really worked over Lewan.
I think Joeckel and Fisher are the only legitimate "sure" 1st rounders at OT right now.