Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ravens Fan
Josh Gordon...200+ targets last year, hence the inflated stats. But if you want to crown him as an elite WR be my guest. It doesnt really matter, my point is that our system is not set up to produce those kind of numbers, which is why even when we have elite talent like Boldin it doesnt show up on the stat sheet.
Im sure if we got another elite receiver we would be better, theres no doubt about that...but who would we get? Who is available?
That's actually not correct at all. Gordon had 159 targets in 2013 with 87 receptions. Torrey had 139 targets with 65 receptions. While this isn't 100% accurate because targets do not take into consideration poor throws or disrupted throws (from my understanding), but that is more than a 10% difference in catch-to-target ratio between Gordon and Torrey.
If you can't look at what Gordon was able to do in 14 games with Brian Hoyer/Brandon Weeden/Jason Campbell throwing him the ball and think that he's not an elite player...I don't know what to tell you. He led the league in receiving...in 2 less games than practically every other leading receiver. For the BROWNS who had no running game to speak of themselves and had a different QB every month.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Numbers != Elite, unless it's fantasy football.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ravens Fan
Then last year they tried to increase our pass attempts drastically while also losing our best receiver. It didnt work which is why we need to go back to a run first system.
3.1ypc rushing. Necessitates throwing more than you might want to to a WR corp missing targets.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wickedsolo
That's actually not correct at all. Gordon had 159 targets in 2013 with 87 receptions. Torrey had 139 targets with 65 receptions. While this isn't 100% accurate because targets do not take into consideration poor throws or disrupted throws (from my understanding), but that is more than a 10% difference in catch-to-target ratio between Gordon and Torrey.
If you can't look at what Gordon was able to do in 14 games with Brian Hoyer/Brandon Weeden/Jason Campbell throwing him the ball and think that he's not an elite player...I don't know what to tell you. He led the league in receiving...in 2 less games than practically every other leading receiver. For the BROWNS who had no running game to speak of themselves and had a different QB every month.
:word
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bt12483
3.1ypc rushing. Necessitates throwing more than you might want to to a WR corp missing targets.
I think this is the most salient point about our offense last year.
It was entirely predicated on the run and the ability to run play-action with vertical routes. IIRC, the Ravens had the most pass deep pass attempts in 2012 or something like that and they continued that trend in 2013.
The problem was once the run was completely dismantled, they were still running routes and passing plays that were based off of a solid running game. It just wasn't there last year and showed how poorly prepared the offensive coaching staff was.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
I would be more willing to accept that Joe Flacco isn't that guy if we saw him fail with top notch WRs/TEs around him. We haven't seen him with a Gronkowski/Welker/Hernandez combination and NE's system which better fits their QB's strength, even though they are capable of running the football. We haven't seen him with a Calvin Johnson or an Andre Johnson (In his prime which is what Schaub saw) or an AJ Green. We haven't seen him with a Reggie Wayne/Marvin Harrison/Dallas Clark(In his prime) combination with a system that better fit the QB. We haven't seen him with a Thomas,Welker,Thomas,Decker combination in yet another system that better fits the QB, while they are capable of running the ball.
The closest that we saw was when Caldwell took over for Cam, moved Boldin to the slot and you had Smith/Boldin/Pitta with slightly better play calling. And look at what happened.
It's really an unfortunate testament to the Ravens ability and desire to improve the passing offense when an aged Steve Smith, Torrey Smith, Pitta, an often injured Daniels and second year developing Marlon Brown represent the best collection of pass catchers that Flacco has ever had.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Excellector
\It's really an unfortunate testament to the Ravens ability and desire to improve the passing offense when an aged Steve Smith, Torrey Smith, Pitta, an often injured Daniels and second year developing Marlon Brown represent the best collection of pass catchers that Flacco has ever had.
It's hard for me to think of a 3 combination of receivers who were considered better than average (as a group) in the history of the franchise. IMO, it's all about the MO of the FO in that the fundamental belief is that you have to be a physical, smash mouth, run first football team to compete in the AFCN. It's hard to argue with the results. We have won as many SB's as Pitt. since 1996. They have been to the playoffs 10 times and we have been 9 times since 1996. It has rarely been pretty, but you can't deny the success. It will be interesting to see how/if that changes this year with Kubiak and his new system. I have a hunch that the running game will be as important as it ever was.
Ozzie has done a great job so far this off season filling holes. It's hard to complain about picking up an aging Steve Smith, or an often injured Daniels, given the holes that had to be filled this off season. Both of those guys are good veteran players who should be able to contribute. It would be nice though, to get a WR and/or a TE in this draft that is considered top tier, and that will be here for the duration of Joe's career. And then build off of that going forward.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lowrider
It's hard for me to think of a 3 combination of receivers who were considered better than average (as a group) in the history of the franchise. IMO, it's all about the MO of the FO in that the fundamental belief is that you have to be a physical, smash mouth, run first football team to compete in the AFCN. It's hard to argue with the results. We have won as many SB's as Pitt. since 1996. They have been to the playoffs 10 times and we have been 9 times since 1996. It has rarely been pretty, but you can't deny the success. It will be interesting to see how/if that changes this year with Kubiak and his new system. I have a hunch that the running game will be as important as it ever was.
Ozzie has done a great job so far this off season filling holes. It's hard to complain about picking up an aging Steve Smith, or an often injured Daniels, given the holes that had to be filled this off season. Both of those guys are good veteran players who should be able to contribute. It would be nice though, to get a WR and/or a TE in this draft that is considered top tier, and that will be here for the duration of Joe's career. And then build off of that going forward.
I agree that both Smith and Daniels represent upgrades at the #2 WR and #2 TE positions respectively. It's just sad that they represent such a significant upgrade.
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ravens Fan
I know this is a Ravens board, and most criticism of Flacco is taken as trolling, but in order to have an "elite receiver" you have to have a quarterback that is able to post elite regular season numbers. Flacco is not that guy
He hasn't been that guy, statistically, you are correct.
But he did show during the championship run, if you give him time to throw, and a good running game, AND the receivers are used correctly (Boldin was in the slot and going over the middle, along with Pitta - thanks Jim) and actually CATCH the freaking ball, he can throw for 1100 yards, 11 TDs, and no INTs in 4 games.
Cam never used Boldin correctly. HE should have ALWAYS been in the slot.
Heck there was a time when EVERYONE knew Joe's only option was a timing pattern to Mason because he was the ONLY one Joe could trust to run the right route and make the catch.
It appears that the Ravens are fixing that Oline to give him time AND give Joe the good running game he needs. He has 2 VET TEs that will know how to get open and Daniels can help Pitta ramp up quick on learning the new offense. We have Torrey and Jacoby for the deep ball. We have Marlon for the redzone and he is developing. Steve Smith will give another VET receiver that can be relied on AND spread some attitude and toughness to the others.
This offense has everything BUT a #1 WR AND fresh legs in the backfield AND one more starting caliber Olineman...the draft.
This team will finally have the route tree to run and use the whole field.
I am looking forward to the Ravens offense getting better every single week and Joe being one of the surprises of the year as they will talk about him finally getting over the regular season hump. He will be spreading the ball around with this new offense. He needs that #1 WR.
If Big Ben is an elite QB, than maybe Joe is too. Joe has more regular season yards after 6years than Ben did his first 6 seasons.
Since Ben arrived, the Steelers have never been above .500 without having a defense in the top 5. And only once even made the playoffs with the defense not being #1 or #2, and even then, they were #4.
Joe has had many passes bounce right off his receivers.
It has been frustrating and fans can remember many specific instances...that had the catch been made, the outcome is different. Evans, Mason, Hosyourmomma, Boldin. Passes bouncing off facemasks, slipping through fingers in the endzone to win.
It seems to me, Peyton's receivers being right where they are supposed to be and catch the damn ball.
When Welker dropped a ball after catching 100+, it wasn't about Brady, it was about Welker dropping it.
Ryan makes his mistakes just like all the rest do, but he has had 2 crazy good WRs and the greatest TE ever to throw to. He throws jump balls and they sky and come down with them.
He is still, very accurate, but he KNOWS he can just throw it in their direction and depend on them, even if they are not open.
Dez Bryant is insane some of the time and would make anyone look fantastic.
Give Joe just one of these type of receivers to go with the stable we already have.
Megatron, Fitz, Green...
Re: By The Beard of Zeus...Jaime Dukes actually said something nice about Flacco
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ravens Fan
I know this is a Ravens board, and most criticism of Flacco is taken as trolling, but in order to have an "elite receiver" you have to have a quarterback that is able to post elite regular season numbers. Flacco is not that guy
Flacco certainly has been trending that way over his career this far. I want to see what happens when he is in a more modern offense which Kubiak will bring. I think if Flacco fails to push himself into that consistently elite catagory, you are probably right.
I think Florio described Flacco best as a sometimes elite QB. Hate or love it, he is our guy and we could do worse.
